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Old 07-07-2004, 11:11 AM   #27
Bęthberry
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Aiwendil,

Quote:
I agree and disagree.
Oh, I do also, which is why I included the slight disclaimer in my post about understanding how it characterises Sam.

But my point is not solely about the difference between a moral distaste for class distinctions and the need for characterisation.

The tag use of 'sir' strikes me so thoroughly as representing Victorian and Edwardian social practice. Of course, as we have already discussed, much of the description of The Shire derives from the Sarehole which Tolkien knew and loved and reflects a nostalgic tone for the Edwardian times.

However--and I am sure this however is going to get me into very hot water--that particular way of having Sam show deference to Frodo and Pip grates against my thoroughly personal and idiosyncratice sense of class roles in medieval literature and in the earlier mythologies. Likely this is not fair of me, but it jars. It seems to me that Tolkin is using a "modern" form of social discrimination rather than an "archaic" form of social address. As I think Rimbaud posted once, the depiction of Sam and Frodo is only slightly above a parody of class issues. And I'm not sure why Tolkien chose to do this.

Pip's comment on being woken by Frodo is, I think, meant as a bit of light-hearted banter between the boys, almost like a boys' camp-out. I'm sure it is Pip making a joke about roughing it in the bush. And I can imagine Sam's reply is in keeping with the joke--"No, sir, I haven't, sir"-- but then the night before Sam somewhat seriously uses "sir' to speak to Frodo.

So, it's just me not being sure if there is a mug's game going on or not. It is certainly one that Frodo does not play, as he quickly puts Pip's demands for water back to Pip. It is simply a point where I feel a slight jarring between what davem has suggested is the movement from 'realism' to 'myth'. Maybe it is just that Tolkien couldn't resist the urge to add some humour and I ought simply to accept it as such. I know some other Brits who are like that. (Looks over at Squatter and the Travestometre.)

Edit: Oh dear, cross posting with everyone after Aiwendil, it seems. sorry for not addressing other points, particularly Hookbill's. Must dash now.
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Last edited by Bęthberry; 07-07-2004 at 11:42 AM.
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