[Måns]

Hmm interesting reasoning... Reminds me of the dungeons of Angband which were no razed in the assault. Firstly, it is quite time taking to raze a castle, even if you are in posession of it. I think that Saruman must have used some kind of siege weapons, mangonels, rams or something like that, and sicne their desire was not too take any casualties, they would have been pretty htorough in the siege, demolishing defences and shooting positions. When they were done, tehy were all eager going home to their own, most of all Saruman who could now resume his quest for the Ring with Sauron gone. The thought that they needed to raze the entire castle never occured to them. For of what use is a castle (even an undamaged one) when you have none to occupy and defend it? The white council counted on continued dominance of the Mirkwood by the wood elves and that they would guard the place. It is even possible that they were given the job to raze it, but since it was such a powerful stronghold, it took time they did not have. One must remember, all castles as built ot last, and it seems to me that Sauron was pretty ingenious when it came to building anything that could hurt people.

IF we conrinue to look at the storming, I wonder which forces they might have used? Surely, Elrond with his Rivendell guard, some elves from Lórien (even if Haldir says: It was now long ago anyone of our people were outside the boarders. or something like that), and a few Istari, bound by their promise not to use their powers of force, one ahs to remember) could not have taken any castle, even less a castel occupied by Sauron himslef. All this strenghtens the theory of Saruman's usage of siege machines since he could not use "magic" (never understood what one means by magic anyway)and taht Sauron used Dol Guldur as a decoy and a weak forward base from which to search for the Ring. It was a lot easier to ahev weaker servants search the river than to send the Nazgul all the way from Mordor.

Another thing is the rather stange location of a stronghold like Dol Guldur, in a forest! Castles are used to control areas, and areas you want to control are usually inhabited. It did not even control teh river valley completely since the Gondorian messenger to Eorl the yong got by, even if it was a close call. since the plains were pretty tightly controlled by the eótheod, one could not build a castle there without defeating them. Thusonly the Mirkwood and the Mountains remained of you wanted to have some control on the area. For me the obvious choice is the mountains. These are the chief reasons: 1, It is very easy to find a strong defensive position with extremely good control of the river valley and the plains, bridging the Anduin would be necessary but not impossible since it was a pretty small river up there. 2: The Proximity to both building materials (which is a huge factor) and of course, to a potential ally, the mountain orcs. You would not be threatened by anything, be controlling the roads to and from the lonely mountain, to and from the Eótheod, have for exampel and unemptiable reserve of drinking water. It would have been a fortress stronger than Masada, but without a roman army to capture it. The mainly moounted enemies wouldn't have ahd a chance, and the dwarves would have cared little.

My description of the evnents would be similar but soemwhat different. I think that it would ahve been a sheerly militar operation to overthrow Sauron by force, that the forces from the south (Lórien's and Saruman's few men) would march northwards along the river on the eastern side of it but still in the valley. Swiftly, they would try and join with the norther forces (Thranduil, Elrond) who would presumably have met by the river. This they do since none fo them would like to come near Dol Guldur in anything but full force.Their route from there becomes more uncertain, I think they COULD go to Thranduil for the last preparations. They could as well go by the edge of the forest earlier, but I don't know if they would have ventured to go through it; though they had the trailers of Thranduil with them. What speaks for that Thranduil did not send many or any men at all to this siege is thathe was busy cutting himslef a slice of the action by the lonely mountain and partying in the forwest to which Vilbo testifies. This maeks me believe that the assaulting force cannot have been very large at all, very few ordinary soldiers compared to the number of chiefs. To even out the situation they must have used siege weapons, invented by Saruman as Gandalf says.

By the way, I will not try and turn this into a Dol Guldur discussion! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] How about the fords of Isen, the least dramticized and over-heroic battle for the next?

Have lots more to say but little time, so for now, bye.

[ July 08, 2003: Message edited by: Måns ]

[ July 08, 2003: Message edited by: Måns ]