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Boromir88 · 12-15-2004, 08:33 PM

I might also get this into the movie discussions, because this topic can apply to either books or movies.

Intertextuality and metarefences take one part from a piece of literature, and it draws attention to a previous work of literature. It's the idea that literature now adays is not "fully original," that everything that has been written about can be written about. And when we see intertextuality and metareferences we think "this reminds us of this..." or "this sounds like this..."

An example of intertextuality would be like the feud between dwarves and elves. Like a lot of feuds, they have been lasting for years, and none of it's descendants really know how the feud started, they just know their in a feud. When I see this feud talked about in LOTR, I automatically think to the Hatfield and the Mccoys, or Montagues and Capulets. That is intertextuality, drawing attention to a previous work of literature (or in other cases movies).

The difference between a metareference and intertextuality is this: think of Shakespeare, he took written historical documents, and historical characters, and made his own plays. Like "Julius Caesar," these characters have been written about, and Shakespeare is adapting them, changing them, to make his plays more dramatic. That is a metareference, that he actually took the already written about Caesar, and put them in his story, and then changed him. If he wrote a similar story about a guy named Larry, who is King of some big empire, and a group of people plot to murder him, and take control of the government, that would be intertextuality. But since, Shakespeare used Caesar, and not some guy named Larry, that makes it a metarefence.

Writers often use these two mecanics to serve a purpose, or many of them just do it unconsciously. I don't know any other examples right now off the top of my head. So, try to find an event in Tolkien, that reminds you of some previous written work (whether it be a book or movie). The big debate is whether Tolkien was using intertextuality and metareferences to get a point, or theme, across. He's purposefully drawing attention to that specific text? If he is doing that, then why? What is he trying to get across? If you simply believe he did it unconsciously, then there is no why, there is no point. He simply read "Romeo and Juliet," and as human nature, locked it away in his head, and wrote about a feud between elves and dwarves, with no purpose for it at all.

12-15-2004, 08:33 PM	#1
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,511	Metareferences and Intertextuality. I might also get this into the movie discussions, because this topic can apply to either books or movies. Intertextuality and metarefences take one part from a piece of literature, and it draws attention to a previous work of literature. It's the idea that literature now adays is not "fully original," that everything that has been written about can be written about. And when we see intertextuality and metareferences we think "this reminds us of this..." or "this sounds like this..." An example of intertextuality would be like the feud between dwarves and elves. Like a lot of feuds, they have been lasting for years, and none of it's descendants really know how the feud started, they just know their in a feud. When I see this feud talked about in LOTR, I automatically think to the Hatfield and the Mccoys, or Montagues and Capulets. That is intertextuality, drawing attention to a previous work of literature (or in other cases movies). The difference between a metareference and intertextuality is this: think of Shakespeare, he took written historical documents, and historical characters, and made his own plays. Like "Julius Caesar," these characters have been written about, and Shakespeare is adapting them, changing them, to make his plays more dramatic. That is a metareference, that he actually took the already written about Caesar, and put them in his story, and then changed him. If he wrote a similar story about a guy named Larry, who is King of some big empire, and a group of people plot to murder him, and take control of the government, that would be intertextuality. But since, Shakespeare used Caesar, and not some guy named Larry, that makes it a metarefence. Writers often use these two mecanics to serve a purpose, or many of them just do it unconsciously. I don't know any other examples right now off the top of my head. So, try to find an event in Tolkien, that reminds you of some previous written work (whether it be a book or movie). The big debate is whether Tolkien was using intertextuality and metareferences to get a point, or theme, across. He's purposefully drawing attention to that specific text? If he is doing that, then why? What is he trying to get across? If you simply believe he did it unconsciously, then there is no why, there is no point. He simply read "Romeo and Juliet," and as human nature, locked it away in his head, and wrote about a feud between elves and dwarves, with no purpose for it at all.