View Single Post
Old 06-07-2016, 06:59 AM   #11
Gothmog, LoB
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 38
Gothmog, LoB has just left Hobbiton.
@Alcuin:

I certainly agree with you that and Clarke that uninitiated people might see and interpret technology as 'magic' if they live in a society in which 'magic' is a thing.
I mean, one can argue that a decent portion of humanity in our day and age wouldn't cry 'Magic!' or 'Demons/gods!' if some sort of seemingly divine (extraterrestrial) entity would show up. We know there is no magic and that technology could be interpreted as magic by a culture/mindset in which magic is still thought to be *real*. But the majority of humanity is actually (or should be) beyond that point.

But I'd assume Clarke and Tolkien wouldn't be on the same page there. Clarke is writing science fiction from a modern/rational point of view. His ontology (if there is any in his stories) most likely doesn't include Cartesian dualism or anything of that sort.

Tolkien writes stories were magical creatures like elves and dwarves actually show up. Equating magic with technology in those stories would we very confusing indeed. For the reader elves, dwarves, angelic beings, etc. would be innately magical and not so because they use incredibly advanced technology.

Both magic as magic and technology as technology are essentially a thing in Tolkien's world. And thus equating or intricately connecting these two (or rather: only the negative aspects of these two as Tolkien sees them) leads to all sorts of strange effects.

For instance, the question how 'magic' as magic is working in Tolkien's world when it can be (at least partially and in its negative aspects/design) be replaced by primitive industrialization-like machines. Wouldn't Dark Lords like Sauron (and would-be Dark Lords like Saruman) use technology and magic for rather different things. Technology/machines for producing or destroying stuff on a grand scale (weapons, armor, etc.) whereas magic would still be used for all those other magical things like the Rings of Power, the palantíri, special magical blades, and so on. Not to mention that the innate 'magical power' of an Ainu would always be present in them, and enable them to create effects they would never be able to duplicate with technology and 'the Machine'.

I hope I can get across what I'm trying to say. I think the whole mortality angle is a different matter. Effects that can be accomplished by the Rings of Power aren't really possible with technology as we know it (and we can safely say that even very advanced technology wouldn't be able to affect 'the soul' because we know it doesn't exist - although, of course, advanced technology might be able to store and preserve memories, generating some sort of weird 'immortality').

If you want to write about the bad aspects of technology/machines it is a very problematic and not easily decipherable way if you do it by using magical artifacts which have powers we would usually understand as 'magical' rather than 'technological'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belegorn View Post
I understand the machine to be those magical artifacts that allow one to do things quicker than normal, that is the enhancement of one's abilities, and also results in less of the exercise and growth of one's own inherent abilities. So here I am weilding Vilya. It enhances my own powers without any natural development on my own part.
I get that in principle, of course. But how this is to be imagined in actuality, is my eye sight getting better, do I become quicker of mind and body, more intelligent, do I get more creative, etc. if I wear a Ring of Power? Is it really that? If so, this has little to do with technology because that only affects the outside world not what's within you - especially if we are talking about 'the Machine'.
Gothmog, LoB is offline   Reply With Quote