[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

...That sounds like the SMART goal thing - specific, achievable... wait, achievable? Hah!

I mean... Beren achieved all his goals. Turin failed at everything he attempted in Nargothrond.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Turin is not a pleasant person, he has anger management issues and mood issues and is obstinate and proud - intransigent? - to a fault. He is also brave and kind and charismatic. He is very passionate, sometimes for good and sometimes for ill. But I have a soft spot for tragic heroes, and I can relate to a lot of his sentiments. Like I can also relate very much to Feanor's words and can absolutely see how they would raise a passionate following. Doesn't mean I agree with the slaughter of Alqualonde, just... I can relate to the ideas. For Turin too.

Swarn. He's swarn. ^_~

I've just read over the Nargothrond section of The Children of Hurin, and... Turin doesn't come across at all well. Ignoring all the complaining about his name, it goes like this:

~~~~

TURIN: Stealth sucks, let's stab and chase!

GWINDOR: "Petty victories will prove profitless at the last," you'll just tell Morgoth where we are. We can't raise another Siege of Angband, so better to survive until the Valar come.

TURIN: The Valar suck, Morgoth will eventually figure out where you are, "better then to win a time of glory, though it be shortlived".

GWINDOR: Seriously, don't equate Morgoth and Manwe, there's a literal prophecy saying they'll come someday. We should think of other people, not just our own glory.

TURIN: [Sneering sounds]

GWINDOR: No, we can't just send everyone to Balar, there isn't room-

TURIN: Why are we still talking, I already answered everything, my momma's better than your momma.

GWINDOR: Your momma's a slave.

~~~Five years pass~~~

GELMIR: Hi, we're from Cirdan to see the Lord of Nargothrond?

TURIN: Yo.

GELMIR: Er... I mean Orodreth?

TURIN: Oh.

GELMIR: Sire, Ulmo says you're in great danger.

ORODRETH: Um, then why did you come from the north?

GELMIR: There are more people in Beleriand than you, you know.

ORODRETH: Yeah, no, we don't know where Turgon is either, and I already know there's danger.

GELMIR: No, really danger, there's a whole army coming for you.

TURIN: Ha! Too late, already knew that too.

GELMIR: ... Sire, Ulmo says to stay indoors and hide your gate again. Nice bridge, by the way; it'd look better as rubble.

TURIN: Ha! "If in truth the Lord of Waters would send us counsel, let him speak more plainly."

GELMIR: ... look, I said what I was told to-

GELMIR'S BUDDY: You know, you're not much like your dad, mortal.

TURIN: Yeah, my hair comes from my mother.

GELMIR'S BUDDY: I meant more the fact that your kin actually know how to be polite and listen to the literal counsel of the gods.

TURIN: "Shall I... endure the taunts and ill-boding of a runagate from war, though he claim the kinship of kings? Get you back to the safe shores of the Sea!"

GELMIR: I mean... we will, but only because Ulmo literally told us to.

ORODRETH: Turin, I'm worried about this; maybe we should take the bridge down.

TURIN: Shut it, STABBY TIME!

~~~~

Turin in Nargothrond is at his most obstinate and glory-hungry. He's about half a step from pressing his hands over his ears and going 'lalala, can't hear you' to literal messengers from the gods. He also takes over the city, which isn't a good precedent to be following.

Turin in Brethil, or Doriath, or with his outlaws, is a conflicted character. Turin with Finduilas is going through emotional angst. Turin as a warrior of Nargothrond, though? He's just straight trouble.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Speaking of that... Did any of them involve themselves with Eonwe's host, for the War of Wrath? I suppose it rather depends on when they were reincarnated - so far, I think fanfiction tends to favour the idea that "Finrod walks with his father Finarfin" (paraphrased) to mean "now, while Beren's story still goes on". If they are still in Mandos during the War, then of course they wouldn't be back. But if they were already rehoused, would any of them return to Middle-earth?

P@L's argument for 'straightaway' is this:

The Grey Annals, the chronicles of Beleriand kept by the folk of Doriath, relate (among other details of the Quest) that Finrod was not long in the Halls of Mandos. Bearing in mind that "not long" does not necessarily mean the same thing for Elves as for mortals, it is still a very significant remark — for it inevitably leads to the question, How did they know? The Grey Annals being what they were, unless the notation is a "later scribal interpolation" it must necessarily predate the War of Wrath — which is the only point in the First Age after the Flight of the Noldor when corporeal, surface-traversing travellers arrive out of the West.

IE, unless the Eagles or Ulmo habitually brought gossip over from Aman, Beren and Luthien are the only logical source for the news.

Would Finrod have gone with the Host of the Valar? I think probably yes! Silm implies that Finarfin led the Noldor host, and it's hard to imagine his reconciled son - who is also the most experiences soldier in the land - not going along. (Does this mean there was another family squabble when Galadriel refused to sail West...?)

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Okay, impression on Part... 3? I think? I forget where I'm at, to be honest.

First of all, how many different intonations can there be to Finarfin calling Finrod "my wiseling"?
Answer: doesn't matter, I love every single one. (Seriously, I had a moment with one of those).

Also, I want to nominate Elenwe to the list of sane characters. Yavanna I would say not quite sane but, hmm, surprisingly saner than could have been? ^.^ I am enjoying their dialogue with Beren very much.

And... Luthien's account is actually quite sane and structured. She is actually not being a petulant child for once, and... wow. I will admit it, I did not quite believe you when you promised this part.

I also enjoyed the Feanorion Healer. Elenwe is fun too. Maiwe - initially she also felt like a "too much" addition, but I think I mostly like her now.

In the spirit of placing bets, I want to bet on the wayward evil spirit in the Pelori being Carcharoth. Don't think Sauron would venture there, and the temporal correlation to B&L's deaths is just too strong.

I really enjoy the 'Beren goes walkabout' scenes; for the longest time I had difficulty imagining the Valar any other way, and it's still my go-to mental image. The presence of the dead Trees in "Wind" is a direct reference to the conversation on the Corollaire, of course.

Luthien continues to suffer a bit now she's the storyteller; there's several stage directions that just have her sitting there looking bemused while Finrod goes off on a tangent, because... well, by this point she's the person who has the least connection with the rest of the cast! She's left out, because the family interactions have been built up so heavily over the previous scenes. While Beren's telling was about him, Luthien's is largely about the people around her.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Lovely! I like the arches first, walls after fading.

On the topic of the topic... I have had a think on "I would fain fulfill the will of another". I think you're right. I am attached to the phrasing as emphasizing that it's another's will and not his, this whole endeavour. But it just doesn't work with this grammar, it's too strained. What was your suggestion for that - "of her father"? That one is back on the drawing board.

And another one for reviewing: "such the unfair (is his high) price for his kingly honour". I remember that phrase didn't sit right initially, and it still doesn't. Suggestions?

I think "of her father" was my suggestion, yes; I'll take a look at both of these, and skim the rest of the lyrics.

I think I asked way back but don't remember the answer: the 'darkened dome' line. It's very powerful, but... what does it mean?

hS