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Originally Posted by Huinesoron
That's not a goal. Beren's is specific: get into Angband, get one or more Silmarilli, get out and return to Doriath. You can plan that; it has an endgame. Even if you'd accurately stated Turin's intent, it would be open-ended, and thus - like the Leaguer - doomed to ultimate failure. It contains neither a 'defeat Morgoth' goal, nor an endpoint where you can return to stability.
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...That sounds like the SMART goal thing - specific, achievable... wait, achievable? Hah!
Maybe better word for it is purpose. I still think Turin's purpose for urging Nargothrond to war is at least more respectable than Beren's.
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Originally Posted by Hui
Nargothrond was already fighting - Turin just didn't like how. The debate with Gwindor goes on for a couple of pages, in which Gwindor advances a plan - "Only in secrecy lies hope of survival, until the Valar come" - while Turin says that secrecy doesn't work, that "victory is victory, however small, nor is its worth only from what follows from it", and that "though Morgoth slay the doer he cannot make [a great deed] not to have been. Even the Lords of the West will honour it..."
Turin disagrees with Nargothrond's current plan, but the alternative he offers is "fight lots and die gloriously". At no point in the debate does he suggest his plan will produce any outcome other than the destruction of Nargothrond - just that it will be a praiseworthy fight.
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Nargothrond wasn't fighting, it was maintaining, surviving. This is post-Nirnaeth and pre-Earendil. Surviving "until the Valar come" might as well be replaced with "until the cows come home". It's admirable to have hope in the Valar and maintaining faith and all that, but simultaneously - did they really think that the Valar, even should they take mercy, would be able to deliver them of their own doom? Could the salvation realistically happen before the doom of the Noldor was fulfilled in its entirety, and all the aspects of the Curse come to fruition? Meaning
all their work, Nargothrond and Gondolin included, should turn to dust, and all their hopes fail. This is quite beside the point of what Turin was saying, but just pointing out that the alternative course of Nargothrond wasn't to happily live to see the downfall of Morgoth
anyways, for philosophical reasons, and sometimes a healthy dose of despair in one's chances is not fey but realistic.
Back to Turin though, he
is working from the post-Nirnaeth premise of "we're doomed anyways, might as well make the most of it". He's being realistic. Defeat Morgoth? That's back in Dagor Aglareb. Even before the Bragollach they were working with a mere "contain Morgoth" with a slight possibility of hope of things turning for the better. There is no "defeating Morgoth" in Turin's time. And Turin doesn't lay his hope on divine intervention, for many reasons; I think the principal is his complex of disappointment in figures of authority of any kind, but you can also argue that in his experience divine intervention only comes from Morgoth's side of things, and he is inherently a God-helps-those-who-help-themselves kind of person. From his perspective, the choices are: survive and live a little longer but eventually still fail (because that's essentially what both history and his own life experience have demonstrated), or fight with a desperate effort and quite likely die, but at least this way you
tried instead of meekly accepting your eventual demise. It reminds me quite a bit of some real life heroes; I think Mordechai Anielewicz and the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising are a fine example of parallel circumstances in the real world. Some of them failed and some who succeeded, that's how desperate rebellions go, that's the whole point. I don't think it's really fair to judge an attempt based on the outcome, and to judge it with the omnipotence and hindsight of an external observer.
Turin is not a pleasant person, he has anger management issues and mood issues and is obstinate and proud - intransigent?
- to a fault. He is also brave and kind and charismatic. He is very passionate, sometimes for good and sometimes for ill. But I have a soft spot for tragic heroes, and I can relate to a lot of his sentiments. Like I can also relate very much to Feanor's words and can absolutely see how they would raise a passionate following. Doesn't mean I agree with the slaughter of Alqualonde, just... I can relate to the ideas. For Turin too.
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Originally Posted by Hui
I never thought about it at all, but you're not wrong. The most likely teacher would probably be Glorfindel, since they were both in the back-to-Middle-earth team. (Though, again, is there any possibility that Finrod wouldn't involve himself in that project?)
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Speaking of that... Did any of them involve themselves with Eonwe's host, for the War of Wrath? I suppose it rather depends on when they were reincarnated - so far, I think fanfiction tends to favour the idea that "Finrod walks with his father Finarfin" (paraphrased) to mean "now, while Beren's story still goes on". If they are still in Mandos during the War, then of course they wouldn't be back. But if they were already rehoused, would any of them return to Middle-earth?
Okay, impression on Part... 3? I think? I forget where I'm at, to be honest.
First of all, how many different intonations can there be to Finarfin calling Finrod "my wiseling"?
Answer: doesn't matter, I love every single one. (Seriously, I had a moment with one of those).
Also, I want to nominate Elenwe to the list of sane characters. Yavanna I would say not quite sane but, hmm, surprisingly saner than could have been? ^.^ I am enjoying their dialogue with Beren very much.
And... Luthien's account is actually quite sane and structured. She is actually not being a petulant child for once, and... wow. I will admit it, I did not quite believe you when you promised this part.
I also enjoyed the Feanorion Healer. Elenwe is fun too. Maiwe - initially she also felt like a "too much" addition, but I think I mostly like her now.
In the spirit of placing bets, I want to bet on the wayward evil spirit in the Pelori being Carcharoth. Don't think Sauron would venture there, and the temporal correlation to B&L's deaths is just too strong.
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron
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Lovely! I like the arches first, walls after fading.
On the topic of the topic... I have had a think on "I would fain fulfill the will of another". I think you're right. I am attached to the phrasing as emphasizing that it's another's will and not his, this whole endeavour. But it just doesn't work with this grammar, it's too strained. What was your suggestion for that - "of her father"? That one is back on the drawing board.
And another one for reviewing: "such the unfair (is his high) price for his kingly honour". I remember that phrase didn't sit right initially, and it still doesn't. Suggestions?