[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I am not entirely sure what to say to this, but the arches are quite elegant and have a large open room, perhaps throne room, air. Whatever you do with that I think will be fine.

On glancing back at it, yeah, I had more detail in Nargothrond than I remembered, so that's good. (I do think I've made Finrod's prologue-throne grey, though, despite the repeated lyrical invocations of "golden throne".)

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't think he's inherently weak. If he really was weak to that degree, I don't think Finrod would have entrusted him with Minas Tirith after the Bragollach, even to spare his brother's feelings - it was too crucial an assignment. And he would not have given Orodreth regency if he thought it would amount to nothing. I think that if he truly took Edrahil's advice, and acted in the interest of the best future for Nargothrond, he would not give the crown to a failure, brother or no. I think Orodreth is not weak - he is just Not Finrod; he's dealing with a kettle of fish not of his own choosing and swimming quite out of his depth, because he has very large shoes to fill. Maybe he even doesn't know what he's doing - or maybe it just seems so to people because anyone would pale relative to the now idealized Finrod, a tough act to follow. But he is not weak, just Not Finrod.

Exactly. And while I'm happy to accept that he couldn't get the recalcitrant Nargothronders to actually do anything about their king being captive - they'd already made that choice - I agree with P@L that Orodreth's failure to prevent a visiting princess being held prisoner by his guests speaks of larger governmental collapse - and therefore, at least some of the key players went with the King.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

As for giving in to Turin, I wonder if that was not tied in to the current story. A second Man comes along and tells them they should go to war; they remember what happened the first time with Beren, and decide that this time they will not prove such cowards... That is the tragedy of Turin's story, that much (not all, but much) of what he does is really motivated by good intentions and good, albeit subjective and therefore limited, reasoning and strategy.

That... hadn't really occurred to me. Huh. You make a good point! (The difference being of course that Beren had a specific goal in mind; Turin, as far as I recall, just didn't like not fighting.)


On the Wilwarin fic - which I will start calling the Dawn fic, by its proper name, since it seems this is gonna be around for a while - I have the Prologue done, and since it pretty much reads as a separate and unrelated piece of fiction, I suppose that's one that can be published once proofread. And I am on page 7 of 54 of Chapter 1... of 23 chapters. So Valar help me![/QUOTE]

o.O What in Space-Arda was that? That's... quite a prologue.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The graphics are great! But I really would want to resing this. I love the duet parts though!

I keep listening to my own sung parts of various songs and grimacing. I suspect a full re-sing is in the future, though Not Right Now (TM).

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

So, I have just finished Part 1 of Act 4. I am conflicted. I feel that I've enjoyed the first 3.5 acts a lot more than this one. Mostly it's that it seems... too much.

Ah, the Act IV feeling. ^_^ Act IV is far and away the most fanficcy part of the Script. The rest is expanding the Lay, but this is pure indulgence. But it's fun indulgence.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

People shouldn't fall into Camp Finrod or Camp Douchebag.

This becomes less of a thing as time goes on. We're getting a specific viewpoint on events, and it's worth remembering that the Ten have been really obnoxious in context - they've been starting fights with the Powers, people really aren't going to engage neutrally with them unless they're very neutral people in the first place.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Also, it goes against everything I wouod have expected of Mandos. No wonder no one got reincarnated, they don't give each other a two minute break for self-reflection. And the Let's Replay The Bragollach came across as something slightly deranged; you have all these recently dead people who have just suffered violent traumatic deaths going - let's do it again? I mean, kudos to Finrod, it's utterly mad genius, but also what the hell is that suppised to be, it's mad.

For the past few months I've been wanting to do a survey of Tolkien's actual statements on Mandos. We know from Miriel that people aren't changed by going there, which means Finrod wouldn't sit quietly for a minute, any more than House Feanor would stop being obnoxious. What I've never been sure of is whether the kind of unrestrained interaction P@L uses is canon-based, or ripped from Valhalla. If the dead can interact, then the idea that they'd still bicker is very plausible, as is the notion that Finrod with nothing to actually lose now would say "why not do it for real?".

... but it's also mad.

(So would Finrod be able to reshape the Halls like he does? The Script implies that most of it is illusion, which should work - 'magic' is a feature of the spirit, and elven spirits are intact even when outside their bodies - but there's all those references to moving the walls around. I think there's a discussion much later about that point, which suggests that the Halls may actually be entirely illusion - or may not be.)

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Besides, isn't death supposed to be sort of a mystery, even for Elves?

Not since Miriel. There's a quote somewhere which says that they don't by nature know what happens, but the Valar have been very clear. And since Miriel was both sending and receiving messages, there's no way people didn't know what sort of place she was in.

The physical presence of various Eldar in the Halls is a narrative device of the Script, though. In "reality" they would probably have sent messengers; there's only a couple of scenes that wouldn't make sense that way. But the Apprentice popping in every five minutes to read out another letter from Amarie and take back Finrod's snarky response would rather ruin the flow of the story.

Essentially this is the same as Luthien hanging out with Finduilas and Celebrimbor - there's no text saying they met, but it's more interesting than her monologuing to herself for most of the act.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But it's interesting that this Amarie is very much the "you will hang your head and answer me at last" Amarie. I think the perspective shown in this play actually reconciles me slightly to that line and to the general flip-floppy tantrumy Amarie - though I still like our version better. ^.^ I am quite curious about how Beren will fix that one for Finrod.

Both Amaries are great. ^_^ But I think Heart and Wind together wouldn't work for Zongmarie - she's forgiven Finrod, whereas Scripmarie most definitely hasn't. Their parting in the Script-verse seems to have been rather angrier, which explains some of the difference.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I also find it interesting how both fanfics pick up on some of the same details and questions (eg. Where were the palantirs in the First Age?), but then some insights are unique (e.g. from the Script - never occurred to me that Nom and Ingold mean practically the same thing!). And in both I like the not-strictly canonical Beren and Finrod, but sometimes must just bear along with the Luthiens. I guess that's inevitable when you add living detail to a legendary demigoddess.

P@L and her beta-readers really did a lot of research. There are a lot of Silm details that get drawn out in the Script, which is why the parts that aren't Tolkienian still seem so plausible (well, some of them!).

Luthien suffers a fair bit from having to play the Only Sane Character: she did in Act III, and she does here too (who else would qualify? Beren? Finrod?!). So for instance, Beren gets to give very in-character descriptions of the events of their story, but Luthien - much later - has to give a reasonably objective account.

But also... she seems a bit childish sometimes, doesn't she? I noticed that this time through. And that jars a bit, but also... well, she is, in that she's been heavily protected by her parents until the past two years. She's not a spoilt princess, but she is still a princess, and one who could drag the foremost minstrel in the world out into random areas of forest on a whim. She's used to getting her way - she has the skill and power to ensure she does when people stand against her - and now she's stuck somewhere she can't do that. Her only weapon left is persuasion, and that isn't one of Canon Luthien's notable traits. (She does it three times, I think: once to get Daeron to go looking for Beren, once to invoke Daeron's aid in escaping, and once to Morgoth to let her sing. Other than that, she loses every verbal argument she's in, unless some-Huan else backs her up.)

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Edit: wait, so the Apprentice is a Maia after all? Well, firstly, thank goodness, because having an Elf in Mandos Management felt very wrong. But secondly, I have a creeping suspicion that I am about to meet Olorin, and somehow I don't want this guy to be Olorin.

Surprise!

I don't think the text explicitly confirms it, but yeah, he's Olorin, as played by Ewan McGregor (AKA young Obi-Wan Kenobi, with, yes, Aule's Assistant Curumo played by Alec Guinness/old Obi-Wan in his younger days). And yes, he's played pretty irreverantly - though no more than the greater Powers! - but:

Originally Posted by Silm: Of the Maiar

Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience.

Of Melian much is told in the Quenta Silmarillion. But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.

He learned pity and patience - meaning that in earlier times he lacked a certain empathy and was impatient. You could play that as Saruman-like obnoxiousness, but there's too much of that about - youthful impetuousness is a different twist. (And yes, it's another narrative device to have so much of that learning take place right now... ^_~) But "loved the Elves," "walked... in form as one of them," "was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar"... all these traits are there in Scriptlorin, but haven't yet reached their final form.

And he's fun. It's partly the casting - I can hear Ewan McGregor very clearly in all his lines. (I don't think she ever wrote a full cast list for Act IV, and most of them are played by classic movie stars anyway.)

EDIT: Remembered the thought I had the other day... it is a bit Much that Gandalf's prowess with the sword gets an origin story too. Again, it makes sense, in that use of weapons isn't an innate skill of the Powers (hence Tulkas never does), and the idea that he didn't just magically learn it but had to face the same painful training as everyone else is kind of realistic... but once I noticed it, it did stand out quite a bit.

EDIT2: I took a quick run at the Mandos research, and have compiled the quotes here. In summary:

- The dead are usually described by Tolkien as 'sitting'.
- Their purpose in waiting there is contemplation and peace, but also to purge their guilt, repent of their misdeeds, and overcome any malice they have towards others.
- They are conscious, able to receive messages from outside and to respond to them (Miriel).
- They can speak to one another (Miriel and Finwe) and can obtain audience with Namo (Luthien).
- One very early text describes them as 'dreaming of their past deeds'.

The combination of 'can talk to each other' and 'past deeds' is essentially what P@L drew on, coupled with the fact from the Glorfindel quote that yes, they still held grudges. She took it to extremes, but the only thing not based in some canon text (that I can find!) is the living visiting the Halls.

(And yes, the council chamber where they discuss interior decor is taken directly from the Lost Tales description of Ve!)

hS