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Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin
Oh, rubbish. A 'Norman Keeps' view of history, the mud-and-dung school which sees 'oppressed masses' everywhere.
Take a look at the contemporary accounts of the common Englishmen- and not just the impoverished, but yeoman farmers- who flocked voluntarily to the banners of Edward III and Henry V.
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...And stayed in France as parasitic mercenaries -- like Robert Knollys, John Hawkwood and thousands of others -- who preyed on the French countryside for most of the 14th and part of the 15th century. Don't kid yourself, it wasn't patriotism, it was the lure of loot. And the grateful English kings, in lieu of payment to his troops, merely left them in France to fend for themselves. Once the French managed to produce a king that wasn't genetically imbecilic, like Charles V, the easy pickings dried up, and the war became very unpopular. Taxes increased due to resulting lack of funds being siphoned from France, and the spiralling inflation led to the Peasant Revolt under Wat Tyler and John Ball.
This was also the case in 1066, as the Norman lords (and half the murderers of Europe) followed William the Bastard across the Channel to feast on Anglo-Saxon England. A grateful William gave out
huge tracts of land to his lords, the only way his 'patriotic' pals would have remained in England after stripping it bare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin
Or consider the fact that a couple centuries later plays on the subject, stuffed full of flag-waving jingoism, would be immense popular hits with the Globe's penny groundlings- scant years after the Armada's defeat to general rejoicing.
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But my post did not concern 16th century or later Europe; rather, it concerned earlier periods more in context with the Lord of the Rings. I was primarily referring to the Dark Ages and Middle Ages. Even a discussion of wars during the 14th century represent the germination of nationalism (particularly amongst the English and the French) that was not as discernible in earlier periods, particularly the dichotomy between Anglo-Saxon peasantry and Norman lords, which would be a very Tolkienesque analogy from a philological and historical standpoint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin
Or consider that during the Plantagenets' wars in France, the use of French was so 'unpatriotic' that it vanished from daily speech- giving rise to Middle English. (And the St George Flag as well).
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Well, you are being rather revisionist. The first actual Angevin 'King of England' was Henry II; prior to that, their appellation was 'King of the English' -- an important distinction, and to the point I was making earlier. But the use of French was waning as early as the death of William I. King Edward I spoke English entirely; however, the epitome of Plantagenet Kings, Edward III, spoke primarily French, and since you refer to Shakespeare, do you not find it interesting that in the play
Henry V there is an entire scene where the king's dialogue is in French? To be fair to your argument, Henry V did also inaugurate the use of Chancery Standard English, and his reign was the first to have English used as the language of government documents.
But French never truly 'vanished' from daily speech, which is a preposterous exaggeration. Actually, Middle-English is a melding of French and Old English, if you follow the theory that M-E is a Creole language. Creolization is a linguistic process that reflects the maturation of an inferior language (in this case Anglo-Saxon) to reflect the sophistication and complexity of the dominant language (Norman French) over a prolonged period of time. As it is, there are countless French words still mucking up the language.
Intriguingly, and germane to Creolization, is the number of borrowed French words used to define nobility and power in English. If one is a lowly peasant farmer, one has chickens, cows, lambs, sheep and pigs (all Anglo-Saxon variants); however, once the farm animals have been slaughtered and pass to the refined lord's plate, they have become poultry, beef, veal, mutton and pork (all derivative of French). In addition, the English parliamentary and judicial systems both rely heavily on French (the words parliamentary and judicial both, of course, borrowed from France).
Now, to stay on topic after a lengthy diggression...let me see, let me see...ah yes,
Rohan! Okay, I am relieved.