[ArcusCalion]

Well, after many days of reviewing and re-familiarizing myself with the text, the different versions, as well as the many many MANY layers of discussion about the same few paragraphs, I have organized my thoughts. Honestly, before reading Fin's last post, I had MANY more comments, but I will give him a LOT of credit - this version he has created is very very near to ideal, as it solves nearly (if not) all of Aiwendil's objections, while maintaining all of the essential essences of Tolkien's proposed changes from MT VI. Nonetheless, I have several, mostly minor stylistic or organizational suggestions, as well as various comments for other points in the chapter. Everything I do not specifically mention I agree to.

CE-EX-01: There is a portion of LT I think we can take up in the beginning here:

But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>
CE-EX-01.5 <Lost Tales At that time did many strange spirits fare into the world, for there were pleasant places dark and quiet for them to dwell in. Some came from Mandos, aged spirits that journeyed from Ilúvatar with him who are older than the world and very gloomy and secret, and some from the fortresses of the North where {Melko}[Melkor] then dwelt in the deep dungeons of {Utumna}[Utumno]. Full of evil and unwholesome were they; luring and restlessness and horror they brought, turning the dark into an ill and fearful thing, which it was not before. But some few danced thither with gentle feet exuding evening scents, and these came from the gardens of Lóriën.
Still is the world full of these in the days of light, lingering alone in shadowy hearts of primeval forests, calling secret things across a starry waste, and haunting caverns in the hills that few have found: — but the pinewoods are yet too full of these old {unelfin}[un-Elven] and inhuman spirits for the quietude of Eldar or of Men.>

That there are spirits living in the world during later days is a known fact (Goldberry the 'River's Daughter') as well as the myriad of speaking creatures in Tolkien's later writing. While it's true he makes no specific mention of these beings later on, I do not think their existence is contradicted, and I think it worthwhile to include them here.

CE-EX-03.2/03.3: Again, another small inclusion from the Lost Tales to add some color to Varda's making of the Stars:

.... by the Elves Elentári, the Queen of the Stars.
CE-EX-03.2 <LT {and}She fared upon her wings of speed, and set stars about the firmament in very great profusion, so that the skies grew marvelously fair and their glory was doubled; and those stars that she then fashioned have a power of slumbers, for the silver of their bodies came of the treasury of Lóriën and their radiance had lain in {Telimpe}[Silindirin] long time in his garden.> Carnil and Luinil, Nénar and Lumbar, Alcarinquë and Elemmírë she wrought in that time, CE-EX-03.3 <LT and {that} Morwinyon who blazes above the world's edge in the west was dropped by her as she fared in great haste back to Valinor.> {and}And other of her works ......

CE-EX-03.4/03.5: In the many cuts and pastes and rewrites to the text, I have this passage marked with the marker CE-EX-03 but that has already been used for the addition to the first paragraph. So I will label this marker CE-EX-03.4 and I wished to include a bit of LQ as it adds a nice detail and names a star not elsewhere named:

CE-EX-03.4 <AAm{§37} In that hour, it is said, CE-EX-03.5 <LQ when first Menelmacar strode up the sky and the blue fire of Helluin flickered in the mists above the borders of the world,> the Quendi, the Elder .....

CE-EX-26: The correct elvish should be Utúlieltë! Utúlieltë, so you were nearly right Aiwendil. I had mentioned this in one of my previous posts before Aiwendil proposed his own draft, but with all the developments of the chapter it is easy for such things to get lost.

CE-EX-27: I do not know why the use of 'Eldar' is problematic here. Just before this, we have this:

Themselves {they}the Elves named the Quendi CE-SL-10 {, whom we call Elves (quoth Ælfwine)}; but Oromë named them in their own tongue Eldar, people of the stars, .....

and directly after this change we have the folk of the Valar saying "I Eldar-tulier". Thus I think we should not change "Eldar" to "First-born. We have plenty of usage of Elvish words by the Valar before they met the Elves, so I think such idiosyncrasies can be chocked up to the fact that the Valar were likely in reality speaking Valarin, but the Elves recorded it in Elvish, and (for the purposes of our project) Bilbo left it in for flavor (much like Tolkien would have done).

CE-SL-11.5c: I would change the sentence very slightly:

... that we should CE-SL-11.5c{take up again the mastery of Arda, }<AAm make war upon Melkor> at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from {the}his shadows{ of Melkor}.'

CE-EX-28.2: Now to the question of Tilkal. I think we must address the etymology of the word, as simply deleting the footnote does not answer the question of its validity. Personally, I think Tolkien is being very deliberate here with this metal. I do not know how much any of you are familiar with alchemy/occultism, but the metals Tolkien cites here are 6 of the 7 metals associated with the planets, the days of the week, and various angels. Lead, Tin, Copper, Silver, Gold, Iron, and Tilkal the last (in occultism/alchemy the seventh is mercury). That Tolkien also deliberately made names for the planets which correspond to these metals (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the Sun and Moon) seems also no coincidence. Therefore, I think the odd etymology of the word is deliberate, and meant to invoke an alchemical/magical property of the metal itself. Therefore I think its inclusion and updating are worth doing. The later word for 'copper' is given as Urus, lead and tin are never given elsewhere, but these words fit well into later quenya phonology, and so may be accepted (Latúcen and Canu) and Anga for iron remains the same. Aiwendil is correct, however, that Laurë and Ilsa (later Silmë) are in later Quenya specifically words for light. However, we can simply use the name of the metal (Culu or Malta for gold and Tyelpë for silver). This gives us the letters U, L, C, A, T, and a C or M. Putting these together can give us the acronym Tulcam which is nearly identical, and I think worth using instead of tilkal, and we may update the elvish in the footnote accordingly.

CE-EX-28.4: As to the question of these words' validity in later Quenya, it is complex. Vorotemnar seems to be voro - "ever, always" and some derivative of the early "qenya" root ᴱ√TEME - 'to bind, to tie." However, another root was later given this same meaning in Quenya: ᴹ√NUT. In the text Tolkien says "Vorotemnar that bind forever" so if we take it to mean (literally) "ever-binding" we can use Voronutalë. As for Ilterendi, this is much less clear. All we can guess at its meaning is that it likely came from the early Qenya root ᴱ√YḶTḶ meaning "to yoke, join." From this qenya yalta "yoke", and Gnomish ilt- "to yoke, join." This seems to have been replaced by another root much later ᴹ√YAN "join" from which we get words like Quenya yanta "bridge." The (er)endi portion of the word is obscure to me. The text explains that the meaning signifies "they may not be filed or cleft." However, I do not see how this meaning can be gleaned from this word. Any replacement name we give them would be entirely invented on our part, but the name as it is cannot be said to be accurate Quenya.

CE-EX-35.1: I added a marker here for the discussion of Falman and Vailimo. I will do my best to lay out the linguistics of it. Falman is derived from the early version of the later root √PHAL - "foam, splash' as in falas and other words having to do with the shore. Specifically there exists the word Falma for 'crested wave' in later Quenya, which has been a word for a long time. The nominal ending -on is a common masculine name ending, and I believe Falman is simply an early version using -an instead of -on. Therefore I would keep the name, but change it to Falmon instead. As to Vailimo this is meant to be a title in the same vein as Súlimo, being a royal-type masculine suffix (-mo. Vai was Tolkien's old name for the Outer Ocean, which later became Vaiya and even later Ekkaia(Eccaia). I do not know if Eccaia replaced Vaiya or not, as both as still valid Quenya words with different etymologies, but from these we can get Vaiyamo or Eccaiamo as the updated title of Ulmo. Either should be fine, but I personally prefer Vaiyamo as it remains closer to the original and accords with it in meaning. Hopefully that made some sense!

CE-EX-36.5: This passage from the Grey Annals seems worth including, and indeed I suggested so earlier in the thread, but it undoubtedly got lost in the many revisions. Anyway, here seems the best place to put it:

CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen]; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. CE-EX-36.2 <GA In these regions, therefore, were fought the first battles of the Powers of the West and the North, and all this land was much broken, and it took then that shape which it had until the coming of {Fionwe}[Eönwë]. For the Great Sea broke in upon the coasts and made a deep gulf to the southward, and many lesser bays were made between the Great Gulf and Helcaraxë far in the North, where Middle-earth and Aman came nigh together. Of these bays the Bay of Balar was the chief; and into it the mighty river Sirion flowed down from the new-raised highlands northwards: Dorthonion and the mountains about Hithlum. At first these lands upon either side of Sirion were ruinous and desolate because of the War of the Powers, but soon growth began there, while most of Middle earth slept in the Sleep of Yavanna, because the Valar of the Blessed Realm had set foot there; and there were young woods under the bright stars. These Melian the Maia fostered; and she dwelt most in the glades of Nan Elmoth beside the River {Celon}[Limhir]. There also dwelt her nightingales.> But after two years the Valar passed into ....

Now we come to the stuff which Fin has done a marvelous job fixing up. I must say, I am very impressed. Just a few things.

CE-EX-46b: I do not think this speech from Makar quite works put into the mouth of Melkor. It feels too 'cheeky' from him when he is meant to be enraged/humbled/despondent/plotting all at once. I think it is best to leave this dialogue out.

CE-SL-15.2: I found a small addition from AAm which we can put here:

..... rather than making high debate of them. CE-EX-46.5 <AAm [Indeed] it is said that in that hour the Valar would fain have put him to death. But death none can deal to any of the race of the Valar, neither can any, save Eru only, remove them from Eä, the World that is, be they willing or unwilling.> Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved .....

CE-EX-39.1: I am somewhat confused by the inclusion of the bit about dwelling as a servant in the house of Tulkas. Maybe I am forgetting something, but is this contradicting anything in the later text?

CE-EX-48: Tuivána is still a valid name for Vana, although it only appears in the Lost Tales. However, the Quenya is still good.

CE-EX-49: See my above comments for CE-EX-01.5 but I think the inclusion of these references is worth keeping.

CE-EX-50: I agree with Aiwendil that the references to Mandos and Nienna must be removed completely, but I think the dialogue we here attribute to Ulmo must go as well, as it completely goes against his character, as it was originally said by Makar:

... whereas CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar {- ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ In this Measse backed him, and Mandos and Fui were cold to the Eldar as to all else}; yet was Varda vehement in support ....

CE-EX-51.1: I agree with Aiwendil to remove the reference to Ossë entirely.

CE-EX-52b: I agree to the new placement suggested, but I also found an inclusion we can take from the Lost Tales:

CE-EX-52b <AAm {And }Oromë bore the message of the Valar to {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen].> CE-EX-52.5 <LT Now all the slopes of that valley and the bare margin of the lake, even the rugged fringes of the hills beyond, {be}were filled with a concourse of folk who gazed in wonder at the stars, and some {sing}sang already with voices that {are}were very beautiful. But {Nornore}[Oromë] stood upon a hill and was amazed for the beauty of that folk, and because he was a Vala they seemed to him marvelously small and delicate and their faces wistful and tender. Then did he speak in the great voice of the Valar and all those shining faces turned towards his voice.
‘Behold O Eldalië, desired are ye for all the age of twilight, and sought for throughout the ages of peace, and I come even from Manwë Súlimo Lord of the {Gods}[Valar] who abides upon Taniquetil in peace and wisdom to you who are the Children of Ilúvatar, and these are the words he put into my mouth to speak: {Let now some few of you come}Come back with me {— for am I not Nornore herald of the Valar —} and enter Valinor and speak with him, that he may learn of your coming and of all your desires.’>
Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling ....

CE-EX-58.3: I think even this small addition Fin kept of the larger linguistic material from Quendi and the Eldar should be removed. It feels far too analytical, and it would fit better within its proper context of the discussion of the terminology of the different elvish groups in Volume 3. I also hesitate with CE-EX-67 but I will leave it in, as it is primarily not linguistic. However, CE-EX-75 does not need to be added, as it can be placed in context in Volume 3.

I think we are nearly to the end of this chapter! It has been quite a hard, long, and heated process, but I really do think that this chapter is becoming far better than it was before thanks to all of our work together. I look forward to hearing from you both!