Thread: Ambarkanta
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Old 03-14-2019, 11:56 PM   #26
Findegil
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The right scale makes a lot of difference! I used now the 2nd Silmarillion Map from HoME 5. As there is a scaled grid on this and on the LotR-Map from HoME 7 that combination is no big deal. The grids have neither the same edge length (2nd Silmarillion Map 3.2cm = 50 miles, LotR-Map 2centimeters = 100 miles) nor a common reference point. But once the scale is equalized the fitting of the Ered Luin from one Map to the other is easy. I will call the result the “Combined Map”
To scale the Combined Map so that Beleriand matches Map V is not easy. Here are some experimental options and there results:

A) My first atemp was to match Ered Luin and the course of Duin Daer (Gelion) and the coast line about the Bay of Balar:
The higher part of Dorthonion and the hills about Himring are well matching their counter part on Map V, but Hithlum and Nevrast are half it size farther south on Map V, so that Taras would on Map V lie were Eglarest is on the Combined Map. On the other hand the westward bend in the river Duin Daer (Gelion) is on Map V 50 miles farther north. So it is clear that Beleriand is somewhat ‘deformed’ on Map V. Now the really strange positions come farther east but they are similar enough to be discussed together with B).

B) As a compromise I tried to match Ered Luin and only the source of Duin Daer, the high part of Dorthonion and the main course of the River Sirion:
In the result Hithlum fits a bit better but Nevrast reaches still much to fare to the south. Taras being on Map V where Felagund’s Tower of Nimrais is on the Combined Map. The western Ered Wethrin runs north-east to south-west on Map V while on the Combined Map it runs east-west. Since the westward bend in the course of Sirion on Map V is not seen in the Combined Map, the mouth of Sirion on Map V is at Cap Balar on the Combined Map.
But even with that compromise the eastern fetures of the Combined Map are in stange positions: The Sea of Rhûn gets in touch with the eastern ocean and the eastern extention of the Combined Map reaches nearly to the norther tip of the Burnt Land of the Sun. The Inland Sea of Map V would reach from the mouth of the Isen to Barad-Dûr and from Osgiliath to Dol-Guldur, covering the complete Ered Nimrais and the southern third of the Hithaeglir with Lorien. Umbar would be in the middle of the African like continent about the “R” of HITHER LANDS. The Iron Mountians of the Third Age would be at the norther end of the Red Mountains from Map V.
As the text always rules and we have effidence that the Ered Nimrais where in existence during the captivity of Melkor and the wandering of the Nandor this is a no go! That means it is clear that in Map V Beleriand is not only ‘deformed’ but as well drawn much greater then the rest.
Beside the question if we are going to correct that, we have to decised how to scale the Combined Map to the same scale as Map V, since we have proven that Beleriand can’t be used.

C) Take the mountain range on the eastern extention of the LotR-Map (for easier reference I will call this the “Eastern Range”) to be the Orocarni and scale the Maps by the distance between these and the Ered Luin:
The bend in the Eastern Range fits more or less to that of the northern Red Mountains on Map V, but the Red Mountains reach much farther to the south and north. The tip of the Fjord of Dengrist of the combined Map is then about the palce of Eithil Sirion on Map V. The Helcaraxë becomes twice as broad as on the original Map V. The coastline at the southern boundary of the combined Map (south-west of Umbar) matches nearly the tip of the Great Gulf on Map V. The Inland Sea covers nearly all the Bay of Belfalas and Mordor, While the Sea of Rhûn is still unconnected and north of it (the Inland Sea ends exactly where Erd Lithui is on the Combined Map). The southern part of Ered Luin that bends eastward is completly in the western sea of the Combined Map.
From the look of it in this atemp the Combined Map seems too small compared to Map V.

D) Take the Map of Fonstad as a guid: match that Map to Map V and macth the combined Map to that of Fonstad.
D1) I scaled and fitted the Fonstad Map by Ekkaia and all the Sothern continants. Judge by that Fonstand does stretch the north a bit or moves Beleriand South and West. Here Bay of Balar is at the Mouth Duin Daer (Gelion) on Map V, while the Highlands of Dorthonion on Map V sit on her Ered Engrin behind Thangorodrim. What does match is the position of Taras and the coast line from about Eglarest to the north. The Ered Luin on Fonstad’s map are moved westward to the position of the Duin Daer (Gelion) on Map V. And she shortens the Ered Luin in the south east by one third. Out side Beleriand the northern coastline of the Great Gulf does nearly match. Actually Fonstad does pronuce the Great Gulf, by adding the coast line of Belfalas and Harondor. Thus the Gulf does reach farther east and is broader then on Map V. Fonstad does as well move the Inland Sea and bend the Orcocrani much to the east, even so the point where on her map the Orocarni connect to the Iron Mountians matches nearly with the north end of the Red Mountains on Map V.
We are of course not as free with our Map as is Fonstad. Either we take Map V with only small modifications or we leave it out. Adding the Hithaeglir and Anduin in their proper place was the aim of all this. Not to explain how the world changed from the geography of Map V to that of the Third Age. (Even so that is an very interesting discussion in its own right.) There are for sure possible explainations for that question without so many changes on Map V. That means we will for sure not move the Inland Sea or the Orocarni. In the way Fonstad has done in her map.
D2) Therefore our result will be different: Since Fonstad’s map is based on the 2nd Silmarillion Map I could scale and fit the Combined Map easily to that part. That meas of course that all features in Beleriand fit or don’t fit as described above. But farther east and south Fonstad modified both Map V taking it only as a rough sketch and the LotR-Map because it depicts the Thrid Age and Fonstad postulated some geographical changes (as she had to do). In the end as a matter of fact we also have to postulate some geographical changes from the time of Map V to that of the LotR-Map. But to do so we should first look on the direct comparision of the Combined Map with Map V. The southern part of the Ered Luin would then be nearly at the later coastline of Eriador. A nice feature of that scaling and placement is that the norther promontory forming the Ice bay of Forochel does here match with the Iron Mountains of Map V. But these Iron Moutians must in a way be modified because they must as well reach Thangorodrim on the Combined Map. The Inland Sea of Map V would in the west cover two third of the eastern Ered Nimrais with Anorien and all of Rohan. In the north it would reach to the Naith of Lorien, Dol-Guldur and the east bay in Mirkwood and cover the Sea of Rhûn, in the south it would just not cover the Nurnen Sea in Mordor. The Eastern Range would only at its south end match with the Red Mountains of Map V. The direction of the Eastern Range is in that part north-east to south-west while the Red Mountains ran north-west to south-east. The Bend in the Orocarni of Map V that would lead to the right direction is about 200 miles to far north. Umbar would be just behind the northern end of the Grey Mountains of Map V. The Tip of the Great Gulf of Map V would be in the middle of the Bay of Belfalas about 50 miles west of Tolfalas on the Combined Map.
As everything is moved south, we have again nothing south of Ered Nimrais where we hear that some of the Nandor settled before Denethor led some to Eriador and later to Ossiriand.

E1) As we have a scale on the Combined Map and a feature that looks very much like real world Afica try to make the southern part of the Hither Lands as big as Africa on the scale of the Combined Map. Africa is north to south about 7600 km or 4700 miles and east to west about 7400 km or 4600 miles: By chance the LotR-Map covers north to south 23 squares of its grid of 100 miles. That is half of the broadness of the Southern Hitherlands if they are taken to be like Africa. I fited the Combined Map of that scale to the source of Duin Daer:
Now the norther promontory forming the Ice bay of Forochel does here again match with the Iron Mountains of Map V. But all the rest of features on the LotR-Map do in the south not even reach the Inland Sea. Umbar is at that Map about the hight of Tolkien’s fals atemp of the mouth of the river Duin Daer (Gelion). The Helcaraxë would be 3,5 times as broad as on the orginal Map V.
Here I think we are dealing with a well know issue that always comes up when discussing sketches of a global map: In Tolkien’s times large wall paper Maps were most often Mercator projections. This leads to a depiction of more northern areas like Europe as much larger in proportion to central regions like Africa. Also big central regions like Africa are ‘stretched’: north-south distances are depicted grater then east-west distances (mark that the southern Hither Lands are much ‘thiner’ than real World Africa).
E2) So may be we should rather take the north-south as reference. I fited the Combined Map of that scale to the source of Duin Daer:
Now the Inland Sea reachs in the north just so the south-eastern Ephel Duath and the Helcaraxë is still 3 times as broad as on the orginal Map V.
Even so Tolkien’s world was considered by him as flat when he wrote the Ambrakanta and made the Maps, his imagination of the world was for sure influenced by the Mercator projections he did know. It might be worth to consider the ‘deformation’ of Arda when it was made round to be some what similar to a ‘revers Mercator-projection’. But that is, as already said above, another discussion. Anyhow it is clear that this options E1) and E2) are not usefull for our momentary propose.

Before doing the next trial let’s recapitulate what we have learnd so far:
The depiction of Beleriand on Map V has some deficits. You just ahve to look on it see that, but more specific points will follow:
- The wesetern part of Ered Wethrin runs too much to the south.
- The westward bend in the lower course of Sirion is wrong.
- All Beleriand seams to be ‘squezed’ in the north-south direction or rather stretched in east-west direction.
- From my atemps A and B and from Fonstad’s atemp we as well get the impression that Beleriand is over all depicted too big on Map V.
Critisem on the Fonstad map:
- The stretching of Beleriand on Map V Fonstad corrected by moving the Ered Luin westward and keeping the western coast line specially in the north where it is on Map V. This is a good idea since we have to ‘creat’ some space for Eriador, the Hithaeglir and Rohvanion. And with this movement Fonstad reduced probably the need she saw for the eastward movement of the Inland Sea and the Orocarni.
- Fonstad breaks the southern part of Ered Luin for the Baranduin and the combined Gwathlo/Isen. I am not sure if that is necessary. There is no suggesteion of this in Map V. Therefore I would rather think that the rivers of Eriador created the later Gap of Rohan or simply flowed around the Hithaeglir in the south.
- To include the Withe Mountains is correct, since they are mentioned in text of the Silmarillion as existing already when the Nandor wandered along Anduin. But due to Fonstad’s supposition of the maps she had to cut of the souther third of the Blue Moutians. I am not so sure that this is correct. I see two possiblilties: either the Withe Mountaisn are a separate Range meaning that the supposition of the maps must allow for some space in between the Blue and the Withe Mountains or the Withe Mountains are the southern part of the Blue Mountians. In that case the supposition of the maps must either support that or the range was shifted in the War of Wrath at end of the First Age. Possibly Fonstad had the later idea in mind, but thought that the shift happend already in the War of Powers. But I do not see any good reason why that earlier movement should be true against the evidence of Map V.
- The same arguement is true for the shape of the Great Gulf. As a matter of fact, the Great Gulf became later the Bay of Belfalas. But Fonstad does on her map already change the shape of that Gulf to match the Bay of Belfalas more closely. Why introduce these changes to the geography of Map V, since there is plenty of evidence that all western the coast line was changed in the War of Wrath?
- The position of Umbar behind the norther end of the Grey Mountians is smart. It seems that Fonstad postulates that the promontory forming the Bay of Umbar was that northen most part of the Grey Mountains. She does even “prepare” her readers for that by breaking the Grey Mountains in this region by a river that on Map V flows rather to the East Sea. (But the drastical change to the souther Hither Lands Fonstad introduced in maps showing the World after the War of Wrath is fully unsupported by any evidence of Tolkien as fare as I know.)
- Her shifted Inland Sea still covers both later inland seas: The Sea of Rhûn and the Sea of Nurnen. She reaches that be not only shifting the Sea to the east but as well slightly turning it probably similar to the bending in the Orocarni. The idea behind that is of course that these later inland seas might have been the remains of the big Inland Sea of Helcar, which I find a very sound and fitting concept.
- Every thing in Beleriand is shifted south from its position on Map V, why?
- The Iron Mountains are shifted south on Fonstad’s map compared to Map V. In that way they are still where their Thrid Age remains left and right of Mount Gundabad are. But I wonder why that should be so. Utomno was destroyed in the War of Powers. We hear that the Iron Mountains were in the West pushed back greatly at that occausion leaving behind the Ered Wethrin, the Echoriath, the Higlands of Dorthonion and Himring. When the obviously easy stroming of Angband that left it intact enough to be later resued let to such a drastic change, how could then the destruction of Utumno leave the Iron Mountians so intact in their eastern parts? If we compare the position of the Iron Moutians on Map IV and Map V (for reference I will call that F) we find exactly what the text described in the west: The highlands of Dorthonion on Map IV match the Iron Mountains of Map V. And the complete Range of the Iron Mountains is farther North with a special dent to the north somewhere in the middle. Even so it was not meant so when drawn (since at that time Angand was build on the remains of Utumno), I would suggest that this is, were Utumno should have been. On the Fonstad map the Iron Mountains are around Mount Gundabad even farther south then on Map IV.
- Seeing the last two points it seems to me that Fonstad shifted nearly everything on the Combined Map to the south, so I can not gues a good reason for that.

G) So with the north shift of the Iron Mountains from Map IV to Map V we have a new reference line: Gundabad on the Combined Map should be where the Iron Mountians have been on Map IV. The scale is defined by alining Dorthonion from the Combined Map and Map V then Gundabad must just touches the Iron Mountains from Map IV. But how to do the fit in the east-west direction?
G1) If we would aline with the Ered Luin, the Red Mountains of Map V would be directly east of the Sea of Rhûn and Helcaraxë would be twice as broad as on Map V. That does not seem right.
G2) If I take the north-western coast of Beleriand as reference things look better:
The Mountians of Mithrim and the Ered Lomin north of Dengrist does in this combi fit to the Iron Mountains on Map IV. The mouth of Sirion is now farther north on the Combined Map but at the same east-west position. If we prolongate the course of the River Duin Daer (Gelion) from the edge of the 2nd Silmarillion Map by about 200 miles we reach exactly the mouth of that River on Map V which fits very well with over all the length of given in the text. Also the end of the coast line of Beleriand from the 2nd Silmarillion Map fits exactly the mouth of Sirion on Map V. Thus the coast line of Map V would be a perfect prolongation of that on the 2nd Silmarillion Map. Thangorodrim on the Combined Map is 200 miles west of the end of the Iron Mountains on Map V. The northern third of Ered Luin on Map V is of course about 200 miles farther east then on the Compined Map, but the middle and south third of Ered Luin on Map V nonetheless look like a natural prolongation of that range on the Combined Map. The middle part is again on the coast line of Eriador. The south part is nearly fully in the later Bay of Belfalas, so in the south it nearly touches the coast a bit south of the mouth of the River Harnen. The tip of the Great Gulf is now exactly where on the Combined Map is the haven of Umbar. The Inland Sea covers now part of the Bay of Belfalas with Tolfalas Lebenin and the eastern quarter of the Ered Nimrais. Its norther coast runs through the Nindalf and over Dargorlad and covers fully the Ered Lithui. So it has 100 miles distance to the southern coast of the Sea of Rhûn. In the south the Inland Sea covers Mordor and the Ephel Duath fully and reachs in the east to a point less than 200 miles from the edge of eastern extension of the LotR-Map. And as a surprise the Eastern Range again fits the Red Mountains on Map V.
This looks more right to me than anything else so far. So let’s try that by a discussion of the changes coming along with the War of Wrath:
- Beleriand are the norther part of Ered Luin are clear and needs not be discussed.
- The Iron Mountains are completly removed. The part is in the Sea and in the Ice Bay of Forochel. But nearl its full length is covered by the Combined Map which shows no sign of it. The Ice Bay of Forochel extands a good deal north of that Mountain range. Its eastern shore being only 150 miles from the northward bent in that Range, so there might have been some connection to the old ruins of Utumno. It would probably make seens to flod the ruins.
- That the coast line south of bay of Balar was as well greatly changed in that war, is clear from a look on the Combined Map. And comparing it with Map V it is as well clear that the Great Gulf became much broader. And to reach that part of the Blue Mountains must go.
- The southern two thirds of the Blue Mountains must as well have been destroyed. It seems that they were some how the borderline of the destruction, at least in the middle part, since where they had been after the battle was the coast of Eriador.
- Fonstad does mention in her text that during the War of Wrath a connection was made between the Inland Sea and Belegear. I don’t think this a information based on a Tolkien source. But it makes much sense since clearly the Inland Sea is in some way drained. Where or how that connection appear is not to be seen in her map, but in ours: If the Great Bay of Map V developed to the Bay of Belfalas it would make that connection and naturaly drain the Inland Sea through the lower dale of Anduin.
- As already mentioned the Ered Nimrais must have been pre-existing. But the eastern part must have been raised probably by the same process that formed the Bay of Belfalas.
- Umbar being at the tip of the Great Gulf is a bit unfortunate, but the process of creating the Bay of Belfalas could easily build the big promontory north of the Bay of Umbar.
- I don’t think that the change of the western coast of souther Hitherland was as drastic as Fonstad does make it. She does draw the coast along the Range of the Grey Mountains, and yes, such a change would be possible on our map as well. But the coast line could south of Umbar as well change to a more east to west course and even bent some what back north once the 200 miles west of Umbar that are covered by part III of the LotR-Map are reached. To join a bit farther west the old coast line of Map V. (In the result that part of the coast would look a bit like the Bay of Tunis in real world and make the Bay of Belfalas look even more like the Mediterainien Sea.
- All the Mountains of Mordor where volcanic, so they must not have been raised imidiatly, but could have been build in the first centaury of the Second Age, but probably the process started at once with all that pushing around and sinking of lands.
- That the Sea of Rhûn has no connection to the Inland Sea is unfortunate, but the Inland Sea draining more and more the sea ground might have lifted (see the lifting of Scandinavia by the lose of its permanent ice shield). With the addition of Ered Lithui forming the ups and downs of the land might have changed enough to move some of the watter 250 miles to the north.
- In the east part of the Red Mountains of Map V must as well have been destroyed, since we only see some faint remains of them in the Eastern Range on the Combined Map.
I don’t see any ‘no go’ in this. So I think we will take this combination as a working basis.
By the way: If we look back to all the atemps, in none of them would Adnuin have a chance to hit the western Sea! What so ever the relative scale or placement. Anduin does either hit the Inland Sea already in the superposition or is so much behind the souther Ered Luin that it surely would have found rather a farther course to the Inland Sea then to the Western Sea. Fonstad does reach that feature only by shifting the Inland Sea a big deal to the east. But even on her map I find the course of Anduin a bit forced since I see no good reason why the river should cut through the Mountains separating Emyn Arnen from Mindoloin when only a short distance to the East, where it would by guide to by these mountains, it would find the Inland Sea?

So now to a question raised earlier: Are we going to correct the depiction of Beleriand on Map V? I think yes. As in the text we do make korrektions according to changes later introduced. I as it is mentioned in the text I would as well ad the Ered Nimrais.

Respectfully
Findegil
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