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Old 02-23-2007, 09:11 AM   #275
Raynor
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You seem to be saying 'Its better for a child who has chosen evil to die rather than grow up to be a 'monster''
When did I say any Numenorean child chose to be evil? What I argued, concerning the children, was that they were tainted. If you look back, you will see that I argued that chosing sides was possible at most at the beginning of Sauron's corruption. Please don't misrepresent my arguments.
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"Systematic extermination of a whole people is morally unnaceptable - whatever they have done"
False analogy; the germans were not tainted by Sauron. And the judge is in one case Eru, in the other (this letter) humans. Of humans, Tolkien said they should judge others with utmost mercy, if they are to expect mercy. I believe this letter it is in the spirit of that idea.
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In fact, I don't think the fact that the story of Numenor was developed & introduced into the Legendarium in the 1940's is entirely coincidental.
According to the Chronology volume of Hammond and Scull, Tolkien first wrote of Numenor in about 1936 or 1937.
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Of course a person may put themselves in a position where it is necessary to kill them as a last resort. But to kill them is to take away their free will.
Which, in that situation, is of secondary importance.
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Tolkien may use 3 or 4 different words in the Intro to LotR which mean 'entertainment' but because he doesn't use the actual word 'entertainment' you argue his intention was not to 'entertain'.
IIRC, I was only arguing that what he wrote in paragraph does not exclude religion - which was your point.
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The punishment suffered by the Queen in Snow White is cruel (as I remember she is forced to wear red hot shoes & dance until she falls down dead) & Tolkien speaks of child readers liking this kind of 'justice'.
This kind of justice? Let me ask you again: where does Tolkien say that children like cruel justice?
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Because it is stated that the Valars' purpose was to remove The Undying Lands from danger
Since I dont know if you mean this literary, that it was their intent to remove Aman from Arda, or metaphorically, that they wanted the danger on Aman removed, please provide the quote you are reffering to.
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Numenor happened to be on the edge of the rift
To interpret the text "Numenor itself on the edge" as meaning that it was there by mistake contradicts the logic of the story. Such a tremendous mistake, esspecially considering the status of those made it (Eru or the Valar, whichever you will) is almost inconceivable, impossible. And there is no evidence of the existence of such an error, only an interpretation which takes the event out of context.
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The way I read it, you don't just want the Numenoreans dead, you want them executed.
This is a learning process for me. I do admit I can be proven wrong in the end. Please make this the last assumtion you make on my part.
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One that convinces, behaves consistently, one who, if he is declared to be loving, compassionate & wise (as well as all-powerful) doesn't execute children.
And I presume that you think that Eru didn't live up to this, at least in the case of Numenor. However, when I have asked if there was any other way to end this story in a better manner, no viable option was offered. Accusing him of doing worse than he could, although we don't know of doing that any better, is, well, wrong.
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So you are saying that he pre-judged the strength of their will to resist corruption when removed from the source of corruption?
Yes. Tolkien speaks of encounters with evil that one cannot overcome. We also have the shadow cast on Maeglin by Melkor, or the allegiance of the ringwraiths to Sauron. Furthermore, when Sauron's power is objectified in an object, it can bend the will of those who it taints; I believe this was the case with Numenor too, that Numenor itself, by and large, became a medium of his corruption.
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And, if he was so concerned to prevent those of his Children who became irrevocably tainted with corruption from having to endure such a life, why did he allow the continued propagation of Orcs?
That orcs have fea is a matter of debate, as far as I understand. I don't know if we can come with a relevant conclusion on this part.
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