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Old 09-03-2006, 09:53 AM   #187
Macalaure
Fading Fëanorion
 
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
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Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
Of course the reader is entirely free in his meaning of the book. Whether he will find anyone that agrees with him is another matter. If someone seeks to assert that LotR is all about a rebellion by the evil Free Peoples of the West against a good Sauron, then he is entirely free to do so. If he genuinely believes that, then it is the "right" meaning for him. But most of us would disagree, on the basis that we are heavily influenced by the meaning that the author intended to convey (and so the words, imagery etc that he chose).
Well, of course one is free to do whatever one wants to. Still, if his meaning is not coherent and conclusive, then it is invalid and of no substance. Of course, nobody can be punished for having an invalid opinion. (at least not where you and I live)
However, I agree on your second point. A reader can of course maintain a valid meaning that was not intended by the author. The less the author forces his intention upon the reader, the more probable this is.

We have agreed, I think, that the LotR conforms with Christian faith. If you agree on the values that the book carries (you don't agree on all, I know) then this means that on these cases, your values coincide with christian values. Does it suffice for a 'Christian work', that those who agree on its values in consequence agree on christian values? Sorry I keep on asking things like this, but I think that as soon as we all agree on a definition, we're halfway done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
Who is to say what are the necessary elements of a story in order to be Christian?
I don't know. As it seems that even we few are unable to come to a common point, somebody should go look it up in an encyclopedia.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
Whatever individual characters may have said, there is not one example of Orcs being shown pity or mercy, in contrast to the Haradrim and the Dunlandings. The closest we get to an approximation of sympathy for Orcs is in the individual characterisations, such as Ugluk, Shagrat and Gorbag. We can possibly understand their desires and motivations here, even if we do not agree with them. But, in essence, Orcs are there to serve evil and be slaughtered by the "good guys". Treecutters, bikers, and even thugs and criminals in the real world are a different kettle of fish entirely.
Closest would be Aragorn's speech on the wall of Helm's Deep, but I would't count that. Yet Gandalf's words are at least something. He doesn't say "Only a dead orc is a good orc".
Concerning the equalisation of orcs and treecutters, I don't like this, too. I would only agree so far as to call unnecessary violent or rude behaviour etc., like treecutting, orcish. In the real world, it's Men who commit orcish acts, which is maybe even sadder.
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