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Old 10-12-2004, 01:32 PM   #12
Boromir88
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1420!

I would also like to touch on another point made by Kransha.

Quote:
Denethor, as far as Tolkien is concerned, looks more like everyone else than everyone else, technically; as wizardly as Gandalf, as kingly as Aragorn, and as Númenórean as Númenóreans.
Tolkien is definately comparing Denethor to the traits of Aragorn, Gandalf, and the numenoreans. But, if we look at these quotes we can see an important thing.

Quote:
'Pippin saw his carven face with its proud bones and skin like ivory, and the long curved nose between the dark deep eyes, and he was reminded not so much of Boromir as of Aragorn' (The Return of the King, Minas Tirith)
Quote:
‘He was very tall and in appearance looked like an ancient Númenórean’ (The History of Middle-Earth, The Peoples of Middle-Earth, The Heirs of Elendil: Denethor II).
Quote:
‘Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older’ (The Return of the King, Minas Tirith).
If you look at all these quotes they use the words "look" and "reminded." To me this is saying Denethor LOOKED or APPEARED as kingly as Aragorn, as wizardry as gandalf, and like the Numenoreans. But in reality he isn't. He isn't as kingly as Aragorn, or as wizardry as Gandalf, or like a Numenorean, he only APPEARS, or LOOKS to be. Here are some quotes to sort of help you understand where I'm going.

Quote:
In the contest with the Palantir Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructivle form their power must be far greater when actually physically present.
That is a quote from Letter #246, just explaining the battle between Aragorn and Sauron in the palantir, and explaining that Aragorn had won. Where Denethor didn't have the "will" like Aragorn, didn't have the "strength" like Aragorn to beat Sauron. He certainly tried to contend with Sauron, but in the end Sauron was victorious.

This is from ROTK Minas Tirith
Quote:
Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly beautiful, and powerful, and older. Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty was veiled. And he was older, far older. "How much older?" he wondered, and then he thought how odd it was that he had never thougt about it before. Treebeard had said something about wizards, but even then he had not htought of Gandalf as one of them. What was Gandalf? In what far time and place did he come into the world, and when would he leave it? And then his musings broke off, and he saw that Denethor and Gandalf still looked each other in the eye, as if reading the other's mind. But it was Denethor who first withdrew his glance.
The first part is from Pippin's perspective, how Denethor LOOKS like he is greater then Gandalf, but in the end he starts to wonder, and know that Gandalf is indeed the greater. Then we have that last line, But it was Denethor who FIRST withdrew his glance. That to me comes off as if Gandalf had won the battle, whatever Denethor and Gandalf were trying to do, it appears as if Gandalf wins, as Denethor first withdraws his glance.

Denethor has a bit of Numenorean decent in him, so he was probably above the normal Gondorians, but again he's only partial Numenorean, and wouldn't have all their traits, or wouldn't have the "full numenorean" in him.

So, to sum up my point. With all the quotes, Denethor is shown, or LOOKS like he is great and mightier then all these "great and mighty" people, Gandalf, Aragorn, and the Numenoreans. But, in the end, he actually isn't "physically" as powerful or kingly as Aragorn, Gandalf, and the Numenoreans, he only appears to be.

Last edited by Boromir88; 10-12-2004 at 01:41 PM.
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