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Originally Posted by Galadriel55
I think it's not impossible that Earendil could have picked it up at the Havens (new fanfic idea: Earendil learning Beorian while courting Elwing  ). |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil
It's perhaps even possible to concoct a love story, wherein Eärendil seeking to learn more of his Mannish forebears from the Finrodian element of the mariners on Balar, discovers that he shares not just a kinship but a rare language with Elwing, who learned Bëorian from human refugees that helped her and her nurse to the Havens from the wrack of Doriath.
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Okay that's actually adorable. Having him learn from Balar-dwellers means keeping Elwing unaware that the language still even exists, until Earendil reveals his lessons to her, possibly when he names his boat. (Though a CT note says that -wing as Beorian might have been dropped later, so maybe not that.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil
I think we have to assume the possibility that there were Edain at the Havens, absent any definitive statement they were NOT: the Edain were proven allies of the Eldar, people who are in terror of their lives flee, and where else were they going to flee to? And we needn't be talking about enough individuals that it would a remarked-upon contingent within the community: it could just be a few escaping refugees fleeing south and taken in.
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I've always had it in my head that the Havens were originally a mix of everyone, but were then abandoned in Cirdan's retreat to Balar. The Doriath/Gondolin group then made their own settlement, which was just them. I don't know how accurate that is though.
... actually, "Problem of Ros" itself answers the question. "In the havens of refuge... there were several tongues to be heard... among the Men of the Atani some still used their Mannish speeches; and of all these Earendil had some knowledge." I guess I didn't read the source text well enough, oops. ^_^
Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil
But there's always the possibility that Eärendil learnt it from the Eldar: even if the Havens were more Doriathrin/Gondolindrim in make-up than aught else, Círdan's community on Balar surely included refugees from the Finarfinian realms: i.e. the realms where "Mannish" probably meant the tongue of Bëor, Barahir, and Beren. Given his sea-faring, it's not unreasonable to think that Eärendil would have had the opportunity to know various members of the Balar community.
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That's a fair point, and works best if Gil-Galad is of the Golden House: he must have come from Nargothrond with
someone, right? But I'm not sure how much traffic there was between the Mouths of Sirion and Balar, because... if there was the option, why didn't Tuor evacuate to the island? The mainland is emphatically Not Safe at this point, the only place still in active resistance to Morgoth is Ossiriand, and that's full of Feanorians who just destroyed Doriath.
Though maybe the Mannish refugees are an answer to that? The Mouths of Sirion isn't just a hidden settlement - it's a transit point for people escaping the ruin of Beleriand. All Welcome (unless your father-name has a -finwe in it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55
How was the language failing? Just that the number of speakers was dwindling? Or the language was becoming too dilute and polluted with the additions of all the refugees fleeing to Brethil after the Nirnaeth?
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The note suggests that the Haladin just switched to Sindarin. "The languages of the Holk of Haleth... appears to have been unrelated... to the other two peoples. * This was the reason... why the chieftains, elders, and wise men and women of the Atani learned Sindarin. The Halethian language was already failing" etc etc. "Wanderings of Hurin" notes that it was out of daily use.
I think there was a fair amount of traffic between the mortal realms. The remnants of Dorthonion reached Dor-lomin by way of Brethil; Hurin and Huor were fostered there. I recall from Letters that Tolkien was against the trend of languages vanishing during globalisation, so I suspect that's what he showed happening: to communicate with their neighbours, the Haladin forgot their own language, and almost as a "therefore" they faded away and were lost.
hS