[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well, I said the matter of Balrog numbers, and let me complicate that a bit more then

Yes Tolkien clearly made one marginal note in the later 1950s [or sometime later, as it's hard to tell], and revised one passage -- which revision did not however, speak to how many Balrogs actually existed.

And yet Tolkien does not revise other texts that still refer to very many Balrogs. Why not? When I look at all of them, some might be explained by saying that he simply didn't get around to them, but I'm not sure that necessarily works perfectly for all examples.

And since there are seemingly more edited Silmarillion readers that HME readers, many do not realize that it was Christopher Tolkien, not JRRT himself, who edited the pasages in question. This often enough 'complicates' the discussion, especially since Christopher Tolkien did not edit the War of Wrath passage in this respect, which often enough gets raised in the discussion.

That is, Silmarillion-readers-only do not necessarily know that the War of Wrath passage was written well before the marginal note, nor that Christopher Tolkien has edited other reference where his father did not.

And as this marginal note is not part of the text proper, was Tolkien going to truly give a specific number in the tale itself? And if so, three or seven? Or was JRRT just going to revise all the passages concerned to make the matter ambiguous -- while not refering to large numbers at least.

And while Tolkien did write another, this time certainly 'late' note, that the duel with Glorfindel and the 'demon' may need revision, that in itself does not tell us that the revisions were going to let the reader know how many Balrogs actually existed.

Revise what? Add a shadow? Make this Balrog more powerful? Shorten it? Since Tolkien wrote demon and seems to 'avoid' Balrog in this late text, was he going to have Glorfindel fight a notable demon if 'lesser than Balrog' kind of demon -- hardly seems likely to me after all the external history behind Glorfindel slaying a Balrog, but I have read someone argue this possibility nonetheless.

So it can get 'a bit' complicated in my opinion

Your entire argument is just stretching the what is possible.

1. We have been through this and we have seen that Christopher Tolkien has the right to edit any unpublished material he liked. What he says and edits is good enough for me.

2. Tolkien was a busy man and had a very demanding full time job. He never got to rewrite many things that he planned to do. It's a very weak argument to use that he had not rewritten the stories as an excuse. Especially, since it's very easy to edit the number of balrogs. More importantly he never in later work suggested that there were numerous balrogs again.

3. It simply does not fit with the story that the likes of Tuor or Ecthelion were killing Balrogs by the handful. We have seen that Gandalf died fighting one and it was a real threat to Lothlorien, that contained Galadriel.

4. Tolkien constantly refers to Balrogs as demons throughout his letters and notes. So just, because he refers to Glorfindel's battle with 'demon' hardly implies he planned to change it from a Balrog to some other beast.

So I am sorry to say the matter is a very simple one. There were no more than 7 Balrogs in the story as we know it and no reason that there should even be more than 3.