The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post

Nelyo · 09-25-2012, 05:01 AM

First of all we must separate elven suicide and that of men.

First Children of Eru are bound to Arda, their fea can't leave it. When they are killed they go to Halls of Mandos where they find rest and healing. The Halls set them right, drive away the weariness of spent years. If Namo and Manwe decide that this fea is ready to live again, if the fea is ready to have children again (thanks Eru Feanor will return only before the end... 14 Sons of Feanor! Hide!) and if Eru gives his blessing then the elf is reembodied. The new body is like the one elf had in previous life. Being embodied is a natural state for the Elves, it is like a marriage of fea and hroa, soul and body, and it is not right for an elf to end his life. Celebrian decided to wait for help rather than commit suicide even if she had to depart to Valinor for healing later.
The hroa can die, "or so hurt that it ceases to have health, sooner or later it 'dies'. That is: it becomes painful for the fea to dwell in it, being neither a help to life and will nor a delight to use, so that the fea departs from it."
It is easy for an elf to kill himself. He just wills it to happen and whoa! he is in Mandos. Elves do it when they don't have the strenght or will to live on, or if they are heartbroken (Luthien) and it is not always considers bad. But sometimes it is impossible to do so. Maedhros couldn't die so he begged Fingon to shoot him. I suppose Morgoth denied his prisoners that way out of Angband, and the spell worked all their lives (Gwindor son of Guilin had no will to live before he met Turin, Maedhros had to jump into the fire crack to end his own existence).
Still sometimes fea can be denied the right to live again: if it commited grave sins (Feanor for sure and possibly all of his sons), if the elf fled from his body while he could still carry on his life (for example some elf was bored of living and decided to 'die' even if he was not weary as Miriel Therinde was). All in all those who killed themmselves have to spent more time in Mandos before they can feel the will to live again. Another probability to be denied life is if the fea's spouse is married again. That is why Miriel, even if the Valar said she was not guilty (she gave up her life), could not return after Finwe married Indis. Finwe had to stay in Mandos forever with both Miriel (alive) and Indis having a spouse in Mandos. Sometimes fea doesn't want to return, so it stays in Mandos. That is the sign of its weakness. Sadly Aegnor son of Finarfin is considered weak, even if he stayed because the woman he loved was mortal and couldn't return to Arda after her death. Those who died twice as a rule don't want to return, but that is not a weakness, at least I never found quotes where it is named the fea's fault. There is another sign of fea's "weakness": some don't answer The Call and never make it to Mandos (most of Avari). Those souls stay in the Middle-Earth longing for a body for ever, but they are not subjects for our study.
So as we can see Elven Suicide is not always a bad thing, but it is not for them to misuse the ability to flee from their problems))

As for Men, they never were the part of Arda to begin with. They are just guests in Middle-Earth, so they mustn't be afraid to move on, leave this world to find another one where they will be hosts (and the Elves - guests, as Finrod believes). Death was Eru's 'gift' to them, the chanse to see new places and walk away in search of their own for their souls are travellers. But Morgoth tainted it, planted in men fear of death, made them seek a cure from it. That was the Mens Failing, with it came illnesses and shortening of their lifespan.
When Numenoran kings decide to die they decide to accept the gift of death and depart without struggle. But it is only right when the time is right, and when you don't kill yourself out of despair. So Denethor II is wrong in his suicide and Elessar is accepting the One's gift. Nienor and Turin were locked in Arda and couldn't depart after their deaths in early versions of the text, so their suicides are not "right".

Tolkien never states that suicide is a good thing. He says that we must try our hardest to live when we can. and we mustn't be afraid of inevitable. It is natural for us to depart. So we will die. We have to do it with grace, if we do we will be the ones who accepted His Gift.

I recommend to read HoME-10 "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" and "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" for more info)

09-25-2012, 05:01 AM	#56
Nelyo Newly Deceased Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 2	Suicide in ME First of all we must separate elven suicide and that of men. First Children of Eru are bound to Arda, their fea can't leave it. When they are killed they go to Halls of Mandos where they find rest and healing. The Halls set them right, drive away the weariness of spent years. If Namo and Manwe decide that this fea is ready to live again, if the fea is ready to have children again (thanks Eru Feanor will return only before the end... 14 Sons of Feanor! Hide!) and if Eru gives his blessing then the elf is reembodied. The new body is like the one elf had in previous life. Being embodied is a natural state for the Elves, it is like a marriage of fea and hroa, soul and body, and it is not right for an elf to end his life. Celebrian decided to wait for help rather than commit suicide even if she had to depart to Valinor for healing later. The hroa can die, "or so hurt that it ceases to have health, sooner or later it 'dies'. That is: it becomes painful for the fea to dwell in it, being neither a help to life and will nor a delight to use, so that the fea departs from it." It is easy for an elf to kill himself. He just wills it to happen and whoa! he is in Mandos. Elves do it when they don't have the strenght or will to live on, or if they are heartbroken (Luthien) and it is not always considers bad. But sometimes it is impossible to do so. Maedhros couldn't die so he begged Fingon to shoot him. I suppose Morgoth denied his prisoners that way out of Angband, and the spell worked all their lives (Gwindor son of Guilin had no will to live before he met Turin, Maedhros had to jump into the fire crack to end his own existence). Still sometimes fea can be denied the right to live again: if it commited grave sins (Feanor for sure and possibly all of his sons), if the elf fled from his body while he could still carry on his life (for example some elf was bored of living and decided to 'die' even if he was not weary as Miriel Therinde was). All in all those who killed themmselves have to spent more time in Mandos before they can feel the will to live again. Another probability to be denied life is if the fea's spouse is married again. That is why Miriel, even if the Valar said she was not guilty (she gave up her life), could not return after Finwe married Indis. Finwe had to stay in Mandos forever with both Miriel (alive) and Indis having a spouse in Mandos. Sometimes fea doesn't want to return, so it stays in Mandos. That is the sign of its weakness. Sadly Aegnor son of Finarfin is considered weak, even if he stayed because the woman he loved was mortal and couldn't return to Arda after her death. Those who died twice as a rule don't want to return, but that is not a weakness, at least I never found quotes where it is named the fea's fault. There is another sign of fea's "weakness": some don't answer The Call and never make it to Mandos (most of Avari). Those souls stay in the Middle-Earth longing for a body for ever, but they are not subjects for our study. So as we can see Elven Suicide is not always a bad thing, but it is not for them to misuse the ability to flee from their problems)) As for Men, they never were the part of Arda to begin with. They are just guests in Middle-Earth, so they mustn't be afraid to move on, leave this world to find another one where they will be hosts (and the Elves - guests, as Finrod believes). Death was Eru's 'gift' to them, the chanse to see new places and walk away in search of their own for their souls are travellers. But Morgoth tainted it, planted in men fear of death, made them seek a cure from it. That was the Mens Failing, with it came illnesses and shortening of their lifespan. When Numenoran kings decide to die they decide to accept the gift of death and depart without struggle. But it is only right when the time is right, and when you don't kill yourself out of despair. So Denethor II is wrong in his suicide and Elessar is accepting the One's gift. Nienor and Turin were locked in Arda and couldn't depart after their deaths in early versions of the text, so their suicides are not "right". Tolkien never states that suicide is a good thing. He says that we must try our hardest to live when we can. and we mustn't be afraid of inevitable. It is natural for us to depart. So we will die. We have to do it with grace, if we do we will be the ones who accepted His Gift. I recommend to read HoME-10 "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" and "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" for more info)