[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

This comes from his understanding of human nature. Pullman clearly believes that human beings are by nature good & are corrupted by superstition.

Originally Posted by davem

As to whether Lyra & the other children are 'innocent' - I'd say they absolutely are. They are neither Good nor Evil. They have not yet eaten of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil, hence all their actions are morally neutral (& thus morally worthless).

Forgive my misunderstanding. To me, there is a vast difference between saying "human beings are by nature good" and they are "innocent", which is again different from saying "morally neutral."

In Christianity, good and evil derive from the perfection of God and the absence of Him, respectively. Evil is, like sin, a privation or separation from God, a deficiency. In the ethical system which absents God, the question is to determine how to go about determining good and evil, which gets us a very long way from Tolkien and spun candy.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

*laughs* Anyone who works with children knows that…..

The applicable point here is not the personal experience of early childhood educators or parents or teachers, but the depiction in the texts. Sorry if this point wasn't clear.

Originally Posted by Tolkien by way of Estelyn

It is better anyway to preach by example than by criticism of others.

Clearly a great deal of Tolkien's habits and manners grew out of his moral vision. An argument which is counter to charity would, I think, in his eyes, be similar to the sin of scandal (inciting or inducing others to sin) in that it exists merely to prove wrong rather than to demonstrate right. In other words, if you speak up only to pull down, if ya can't add sumthin' good, don't add it at all.

That said, I probably should reiterate my agreement with Lal that I find Pullman's creation fascinating even if unsatisfactory at times. I think he is trying to articulate a vision of fantasy which does not look back, but which looks around at the present or towards the future. Even Tolkien gave up writing post-Third Age.