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davem · 05-10-2004, 11:43 AM

Ok, not wanting to be misunderstood, & I was maybe writing too quickly. When I said

'I can't help feeling that you are running scared of a belief - that if you were to accept that 'Truth' is 'real' then you would have to put down your Tolkien, pick up a Bible & head off to Church.'

What I meant was, it seems to me that you feel that if you acknowledged the existence of some ultimate Truth, you feel you would have to do something - as though the very existence of Truth, would require some response, some action. The way you both seem to fight against it makes it seem that way.

As I stated in my last post, I'm not using the term Truth in the sense of a set of moral tenets, a clearly set out Dogma which you have to sign up to. I suggested the use of Tao, following Lewis' use in his book, or 'Joy', following Tolkien in the fairy Stories essay. And I'm happy to use 'Joy' (capitalised again - sorry!) if others prefer it, as long as it is understood to be an absolute - as in the Book of Job, 38,7 :'When the morning stars sang together, & all the sons of God shouted for Joy'.

I'm not talking about a moral philosophy that you have to go along with, so there will never be a situation where everyone is required to believe the same things, & see the world in the same way. Indeed, the experience of absolute 'Joy', or Truth is beyond words - eucatastrophe, like enchantment cannot be explained - only explained away, & whatever lies beyond Eucatastrophe, the full experience of what we glimpse in that moment is even farther out of reach for the rational mind. In the Cloud of Unknowing the author writes that 'God' cannot be known by the intellect, & as far as I'm concerned you can substitute 'Joy' for God in the sense in which I'm using the term.

We can say, reducing all the references, & theories, about Tolkien's motivations, all the stuff about moral regeneration, all of it, to a simple statement of what he wanted to do in his work. He wanted to bring as much Joy to as many of us as possible. He had a particular view of the way to bring that about - in literature & in life, but it was all a means to an end. What he really felt was that there was a lack of 'Joy' in the world, that the world had become dirty & shabby & miserable & sick, & needed healing. So he wrote stories to bring us Joy - to give us access, through enchantment, to something that would make us Joyous, make the world we live in more magical, by showing us a world where magic & Joy &, yes, Truth, could be seen.

So when we leave Middle Earth we feel a lack - why? Because Tolkien has opened up a space in us, waiting for something to fill it, & we go looking for it, 'round the corner', where there may wait ' new road or a secret gate'. And we're looking for Joy, because we've glimpsed it, & feel, hope, it might just be out there, somewhere. We become seekers, questers. So, on one level, the Ring is all the 'dirtiness, shabbyness, misery & sickness' of the world & in ourselves, & if we can get rid of it - however hard the struggle is - we will be able to take the Ship into the West, to Avalon, where in Tennyson's words:

Where falls not hail, or rain, or any snow,//
Nor ever wind blows loudly; but it lies//
Deep-meadow'd, happy, fair with orchard lawns//
And bowery hollows crown'd with summer sea.

And before the materialists take up their big guns, that Joy can be found here, in this world, because its a way of seeing & experiencing the world around us, as well as what may happen after - if anything does. Its the 'harmonic' thing again - this world, enchantment, eucatastrophe & Joy, they're all the same, & they're all here, now, if we can change our way of looking. The Tao Te Ching says 'without leaving his own room a man may know the whole world'. If we can have a glimpse of Joy while we're still in this world, if even materialists can glimpse it

, then its here, & its our fault we don't see it, live it, all the time.

What Tolkien is saying is that Joy is true - its the Truth, because its more true than anything else.

I don't know if this is enough, & whether there will still be demands for Joy to be reduced to a set of facts & figures which we can all debate. Joy is canonical, if we can say anything is, & any interpretation of Tolkien's works, any fanfic, must capture that - or at least the hope of it, if it is to be acceptable. So, any interpretation of Tolkien's work that doesn't produce that feeling of Joy, is WRONG. Because, under all the sadness & suffering & loss in his work, there is Joy, the striving for it & the sense of overwhelming grief when it seems beyond reach. All the struggles of all the characters in the book are struggles to find Joy, & all our struggles in this world are the same.

And why struggle on like that for something so seemingly 'ephemeral' & abstract as 'Joy'? Because its not either ephemeral or abstract - its 'True'. Its the one True thing, all the other stuff that isn't Joy is transitory, & its in the way & we have to get over it, or around it, one way or another, to get to what's True.

So, no-one need feel they're missing anything if they don't understand or agree with Tolkien's 'Truth'. Its not some big secret that you have to study years to get at, or read all his books & all the books about him. If you read just LotR & The Hobbit & enjoy them, you've understood it.

05-10-2004, 11:43 AM	#284
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Ok, not wanting to be misunderstood, & I was maybe writing too quickly. When I said 'I can't help feeling that you are running scared of a belief - that if you were to accept that 'Truth' is 'real' then you would have to put down your Tolkien, pick up a Bible & head off to Church.' What I meant was, it seems to me that you feel that if you acknowledged the existence of some ultimate Truth, you feel you would have to do something - as though the very existence of Truth, would require some response, some action. The way you both seem to fight against it makes it seem that way. As I stated in my last post, I'm not using the term Truth in the sense of a set of moral tenets, a clearly set out Dogma which you have to sign up to. I suggested the use of Tao, following Lewis' use in his book, or 'Joy', following Tolkien in the fairy Stories essay. And I'm happy to use 'Joy' (capitalised again - sorry!) if others prefer it, as long as it is understood to be an absolute - as in the Book of Job, 38,7 :'When the morning stars sang together, & all the sons of God shouted for Joy'. I'm not talking about a moral philosophy that you have to go along with, so there will never be a situation where everyone is required to believe the same things, & see the world in the same way. Indeed, the experience of absolute 'Joy', or Truth is beyond words - eucatastrophe, like enchantment cannot be explained - only explained away, & whatever lies beyond Eucatastrophe, the full experience of what we glimpse in that moment is even farther out of reach for the rational mind. In the Cloud of Unknowing the author writes that 'God' cannot be known by the intellect, & as far as I'm concerned you can substitute 'Joy' for God in the sense in which I'm using the term. We can say, reducing all the references, & theories, about Tolkien's motivations, all the stuff about moral regeneration, all of it, to a simple statement of what he wanted to do in his work. He wanted to bring as much Joy to as many of us as possible. He had a particular view of the way to bring that about - in literature & in life, but it was all a means to an end. What he really felt was that there was a lack of 'Joy' in the world, that the world had become dirty & shabby & miserable & sick, & needed healing. So he wrote stories to bring us Joy - to give us access, through enchantment, to something that would make us Joyous, make the world we live in more magical, by showing us a world where magic & Joy &, yes, Truth, could be seen. So when we leave Middle Earth we feel a lack - why? Because Tolkien has opened up a space in us, waiting for something to fill it, & we go looking for it, 'round the corner', where there may wait ' new road or a secret gate'. And we're looking for Joy, because we've glimpsed it, & feel, hope, it might just be out there, somewhere. We become seekers, questers. So, on one level, the Ring is all the 'dirtiness, shabbyness, misery & sickness' of the world & in ourselves, & if we can get rid of it - however hard the struggle is - we will be able to take the Ship into the West, to Avalon, where in Tennyson's words: Where falls not hail, or rain, or any snow,// Nor ever wind blows loudly; but it lies// Deep-meadow'd, happy, fair with orchard lawns// And bowery hollows crown'd with summer sea. And before the materialists take up their big guns, that Joy can be found here, in this world, because its a way of seeing & experiencing the world around us, as well as what may happen after - if anything does. Its the 'harmonic' thing again - this world, enchantment, eucatastrophe & Joy, they're all the same, & they're all here, now, if we can change our way of looking. The Tao Te Ching says 'without leaving his own room a man may know the whole world'. If we can have a glimpse of Joy while we're still in this world, if even materialists can glimpse it , then its here, & its our fault we don't see it, live it, all the time. What Tolkien is saying is that Joy is true - its the Truth, because its more true than anything else. I don't know if this is enough, & whether there will still be demands for Joy to be reduced to a set of facts & figures which we can all debate. Joy is canonical, if we can say anything is, & any interpretation of Tolkien's works, any fanfic, must capture that - or at least the hope of it, if it is to be acceptable. So, any interpretation of Tolkien's work that doesn't produce that feeling of Joy, is WRONG. Because, under all the sadness & suffering & loss in his work, there is Joy, the striving for it & the sense of overwhelming grief when it seems beyond reach. All the struggles of all the characters in the book are struggles to find Joy, & all our struggles in this world are the same. And why struggle on like that for something so seemingly 'ephemeral' & abstract as 'Joy'? Because its not either ephemeral or abstract - its 'True'. Its the one True thing, all the other stuff that isn't Joy is transitory, & its in the way & we have to get over it, or around it, one way or another, to get to what's True. So, no-one need feel they're missing anything if they don't understand or agree with Tolkien's 'Truth'. Its not some big secret that you have to study years to get at, or read all his books & all the books about him. If you read just LotR & The Hobbit & enjoy them, you've understood it. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."