The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - LotR -- Book 6 - Chapter 3

davem · 10-18-2005, 03:02 PM

I'm a bit vague on the Eddas at the moment - don't have my books to hand. I know Odin descended into the Underworld to ask Hel (the goddess of the realm) about Balder's dream. Certainly the Underworld theme is present in Beowulf, with the descent into the mere to confront Grendel's mother. We also have the Dragon's cave from which the thief steals the cup which brings about the hero's death. Celtic myth is replete with accounts of hollow hills as the entrance to Fairyland. Newgrange was clearly used for ritual purposes - as were other 'burial mounds' - places for communing with the ancestors (the numerous accounts of heroes like Arthur, Finn MacCool, Merlin & Barbarossa etc being not dead but only sleeping in a cave somewhere).

Of course, caves are only one entrance to the OtherWorld. There are a number of fairytales where the hero/heroine climbes down into a well to another land. This idea of another, magical, world found by passing within this one & where some kind of treasure is to be found, is commonplace. Glastonbury Tor is supposed to contain an entrance to the Underworld, ruled by Gwyn ap Nudd.

Frodo, in a sense 'dies' at the Sammath Naur, But whether he is truly 'reborn' is another question - his statement that 'There is no real going back' when he is approaching the Shire seems to imply that if he was reborn there he was reborn as an inhabitant of the Otherworld, & is not able to truly go back to the mundane world. His stay in the Shire is brief & in the end he sets sail for the Otherworld. Kind of reminds me of other traditional heroes who are said to be 'trapped' in Fairyland, or to have gone there to live - Thomas the Rhymer & Robert Kirk among them.

Frodo & the other Hobbits have crossed a number of boundaries - rivers principally - to move further & further into the Otherworld of Middle-earth, away from the mundane world of the Shire. Its interesting that all of them pass back into that mythic realm to die - neither Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry or Pippin die in the Shire. All their returns are transitory & in the end they leave the everyday world & return to the world of legend.

Waffling, because I can't dig up the examples you asked for...

10-18-2005, 03:02 PM	#54
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I'm a bit vague on the Eddas at the moment - don't have my books to hand. I know Odin descended into the Underworld to ask Hel (the goddess of the realm) about Balder's dream. Certainly the Underworld theme is present in Beowulf, with the descent into the mere to confront Grendel's mother. We also have the Dragon's cave from which the thief steals the cup which brings about the hero's death. Celtic myth is replete with accounts of hollow hills as the entrance to Fairyland. Newgrange was clearly used for ritual purposes - as were other 'burial mounds' - places for communing with the ancestors (the numerous accounts of heroes like Arthur, Finn MacCool, Merlin & Barbarossa etc being not dead but only sleeping in a cave somewhere). Of course, caves are only one entrance to the OtherWorld. There are a number of fairytales where the hero/heroine climbes down into a well to another land. This idea of another, magical, world found by passing within this one & where some kind of treasure is to be found, is commonplace. Glastonbury Tor is supposed to contain an entrance to the Underworld, ruled by Gwyn ap Nudd. Frodo, in a sense 'dies' at the Sammath Naur, But whether he is truly 'reborn' is another question - his statement that 'There is no real going back' when he is approaching the Shire seems to imply that if he was reborn there he was reborn as an inhabitant of the Otherworld, & is not able to truly go back to the mundane world. His stay in the Shire is brief & in the end he sets sail for the Otherworld. Kind of reminds me of other traditional heroes who are said to be 'trapped' in Fairyland, or to have gone there to live - Thomas the Rhymer & Robert Kirk among them. Frodo & the other Hobbits have crossed a number of boundaries - rivers principally - to move further & further into the Otherworld of Middle-earth, away from the mundane world of the Shire. Its interesting that all of them pass back into that mythic realm to die - neither Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry or Pippin die in the Shire. All their returns are transitory & in the end they leave the everyday world & return to the world of legend. Waffling, because I can't dig up the examples you asked for... __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."