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Old 07-14-2020, 02:13 AM   #91
Huinesoron
Overshadowed Eagle
 
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Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
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Huinesoron is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Huinesoron is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Gonna start off with: I am amazed at how you manage to keep the rhymes and content in balance for Finrod's part. The Duel looks great! I have a few things to say, but I think I'll leave them for last to give it proper thought.
I agree with this whole post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
First Verse:

"Without excuses [for myself? for the Noldor?], I stand before you rimmed by the Western Winds".

I like "No excuses now", and I also like "no illusions now". "Illusions" gives it a different meaning from the source text, but depending on how Finrod's song proceeds (ie when he does start making excuses) it might be worthwhile to revisit this point.
I think we'll stick with 'excuses' for now, particularly if he winds up making some!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
"Lies are poison foul" should be 4 syllables, I am again confused at how they got 5 out of it. The way I have the melody in my head I can't get the 5th one to fit on any end.
Not a clue, but I hate this line. It needs to rhyme with vows/now/pow'r, and possibly also with snow/boughs, and to capture both 'lies' and 'poison' - in four syllables.

... Lies taste so foul? We lose the explicit 'poison', but if we put it back into the next line the implicit link is there (Lies taste terrible, but even if they poison you they're not stronger than love).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Uhhhh... the translation of the Lay? Sorry, out of my depth here. But it makes sense in this context - and if there is somehow a connection to Finrod's last words to Beren, all the better!
Sorry, I meant: this is based on the Version 1 subtitles/translation, rather than the more literal Version 2 subtitles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Verse 2: Finrod

Hmm, interesting. He says "the strings of the lyres keep silent about the power of years", which I took to mean "our legends (and even Arda's Song itself, perhaps) don't reveal what is to come, the ultimate end [and therefore Light might still triumph]".
Oh, that's what it means!

There harps are playing
No ending in their song


'In' rather than 'to' to imply 'they don't sing of the End' (rather than 'they just don't stop!')

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I was gonna suggest "remembrance", but then remembered it's also supposed to rhyme. :/
This is basically me all through the song.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I will suggest a small detail, a switch to "While falsehoods etc". This makes a more direct comparison to the preceding line. Also, I really like these two lines.
Yep, that works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Iiiinteresting. You're the second Downer to put the emphasis on that part of the line (the first was Legate who I messaged about the awesomeness of the Duel).

Sauron says: "Power/strength can belong only to those who can without doubt/hesitation tear the chains of thralldom". It's so interesting that both you and Legate picked up on the thralldom part; he linked it with the Noldor's semi-rebellion against the Valar's yoke, I'm not sure if you intended the same thing. But I and my friend (not that one, another one) picked up more on the "doubt". You are only strong if you have confidence in your rightness your self-doubt becomes your shackles. Both Duels can be seen as a struggle of confidences, who is more sure of what they stand for. And therefore Finrod loses as soon as he gets defensive.

Two different takes on the same line. I wonder if it's possible to preserve both interpretations. Who breaks without doubt the chains that bind his freedom earned?
Huh. I think this is mostly down to the translation, to be honest. I assumed Sauron was mostly referring to himself and Melkor, since standing there saying 'hey, if you're confident I'll let you go' would be a bit dumb. (But then, Sauron...)

I'm not sure 'doubt' captures the concept... there's a word out there that I can't quite get hold of that does it perfectly. I'll come back to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
"But" should probably go. It works in the other Duel because it's the first line Sauron says, he has room for overhang. But this falls in the middle of the rant, and, though possible, it's uncomfortable to squeeze in "but" - which isn't critical to the sentence anyways.
Got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I have no idea how you can deal with Finrod's rhymes, which will surely tangle Death itself in their boughs even if the Trees fail. :P
Ha! This is the one song I've not even bothered with rhymes the first time through: I've taken to writing lyrics that scan, then writing the rhyme scheme next to them and shuffling words around until it all fits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
1. "Ice" vs "snow"
I am curious what your thought is about death as a "below" concept in a world where the Otherworld is not in an Underworld. If you think it still goes, this might be an option. Otherwise, I think "summons" will compensate for "Ice".
Mm. Technically both Deaths are below, but you're right that it's more interesting not to use that term. Stick with what you've got.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I think of these options I like either what is there already or (B), which sacrifices "rustle" and "mighty" and the final emphasis on death, but brings in Galadriel's perspective. I'm gonna post up (B) to see how it flows. Still hanging in the balance.
I like this version. I mean, I like both versions, but the 'silent beat' evokes an image of Death like a black owl in the night. Or indeed a bat, if Emo Sauron has his way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Crossed your boundary!
This! This is the word we need!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Since "snow" and "boughs" are only near-rhymes, would it sound better in plural, "snows"?
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Another alternative: He who without doubting breaks the chains which slave him hold
There's an 'un-' word, I'm sure there is. I'm putting this in for now, but I swear there's a word out there.

Thank you for the rhyme notes! I will work on the Duel and look over the Epilogue today. After which I think I'll pick one of Amarie's songs, with only a single singer. Sounds like heaven!

hS
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