[TheAzn]

Good morning, Puddleglum. As stated, there are many large fundamental problems with your arguments and I will now explain why.

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

I'm not sure the math works out quite like your picture suggests. In an optimal trajectory the angle of the projectile will be at about 45 degrees so an elevation of 700 feet (even assuming the Citadel wall was manned by catapults - which Tolkien never wrote) would give an extra 700 foot range (plus or minus) - that's less that 2/10 of a mile. All Sauron has to do is move his catapults back a couple of city blocks.

And note that the 1000 foot elevation is only from the top of the White Tower - where Denethor had his special viewing chamber with the Palantier - definitiely not big enough for a large number of catapults.

Look at it this way.

1. Denethor has catapults - but how big does he have them built. Maybe he should have built ones big enough to lob big rocks 10 miles - but he clearly didn't.
2. Sauron, planning his assault, has excellent spying ability with *HIS* Palantir and so can easily know what size catapults Denethor *does* have.
3. Sauron then builds larger catapults, capable of throwing 1000 feet further than Denethor's.
4. By the time Sauron starts his attack, it's too late for Denethor to build new and larger catapults.
5. Sauron just sets down out of range of Denethor's 'pults and lets loose.

Also, remember that Sauron's catapults did not need to be able to hurl large Truck-sized rocks. Just human heads and other shot that was incendiary.

He had no plan to try and batter down the walls - that was only in the Peter Jackson adaptation, not in the books. Lighter shot requires a smaller catapult to be hurled large distances.

Thus, for example, Sauron could observe Denethor had catapults capable of hurling 1-ton boulders, say, 1 mile - and counter by building catapults capable of hurling 10-pound shells & heads 1.2 or 1.3 miles. And, because of the weight differential, his would be far more portable. Then he sets up his trenches 1.2 miles from the wall (1 mile plus the added range from a 700 foot elevation difference) and starts lobbing.

Also, note that Sauron had no need to try and shoot catapults in the citadel. He was trying to start fires and sow despair. His targets are in the lower city.

And note that the 1000 foot elevation is only from the top of the White Tower - where Denethor had his special viewing chamber with the Palantier - definitiely not big enough for a large number of catapults.

Yes, I know that, which is why I did not draw any artilleries on top of the White Tower itself. This is also the reason why I put the height of the artilleries as being from 100 to 200 to 500 to 800 feet high out of the total height 1000 feet. I will now revise and say that the maximum height of the artilleries should be about 700 feet. The result came from subtracting the height of the White Tower, which is 300 feet by itself, with the total height of Minas Tirith (around 1000 feet).

(even assuming the Citadel wall was manned by catapults - which Tolkien never wrote)

There are no things in Minas Tirith that would inhibit the placement of small catapults on the Citadel Wall, and I would explain more of this later on below.

Look at it this way.

1. Denethor has catapults - but how big does he have them built. Maybe he should have built ones big enough to lob big rocks 10 miles - but he clearly didn't.

Just to clear up any potential misconception, Denethor does not have to shoot 10 miles. As already stated, 10 miles is the maximum distance of separation from Minas Tirith to Rammas Echor. There are parts of the Rammas Echor that is more than 3 to 4 times as close to Minas Tirith when compared to the furthest distance of separation. As you have already known, 40,000 Mordorians is a very conservative number; heck even 80,000 is still considered to be a moderately conservative number. With this in mind, the Mordorians/Morgulians/Haradrims/etc. would have to be far closer to Minas Tirith than 7 miles.

Sauron, planning his assault, has excellent spying ability with *HIS* Palantir and so can easily know what size catapults Denethor *does* have.

And the Gondorians have excellent spying ability as well. Some of the examples would be the fact that the Mumakils and the trolls did not escape Gondorian attentions. In fact, in the case of the Mumakils, the Gondorians have enough time to plan and lay a near perfect ambush. Assessing the strength of the Mordorian artilleries is the matter of life and death for the Gondorians. We know that Denethor, even with small hope, prepared extensively for the siege of life and death, even to the point of having some horses. Horses, besides using to send some messages, are essentially useless and served no purpose in siege warfare. If such things of low priority are worked on, one can imagine the attention paid to the most important things beside walls in siege warfare - artilleries.

• Sauron then builds larger catapults, capable of throwing 1000 feet further than Denethor's.
• By the time Sauron starts his attack, it's too late for Denethor to build new and larger catapults.
• Sauron just sets down out of range of Denethor's 'pults and lets loose.[/

1. 1000 feet in more range is not an easy feat. If I am not wrong, I believe that the consensus on the Barrowdowns is that, despite outnumbering the Gondorians by a wide margin, Mordor does not have much resources. Mordor might have a million force for the entire Middle Earth, but not tens of millions. The Witch King outnumbered Minas Tirith, but at the cost of emptying Morgul Vale and nearby Haradrims. You can imagine the cost in life for the Mordorians by just transporting -what would have been- a very ginormous machine across broken roads and terrain. Of course, I even doubt that such machinese can even exist, for even the mighty trebuchet of the technologically advanced period of the Middle Ages cannot match archers on the ground - albeit when used to tear down walls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV1mVWI413M
2. This has already been stated above, but I will repeat it again. Denethor and the Gondorians have every chance to know about the Mordorian artilleries. The Gondorians being cocky enough to think that artilleries cannot throw light objects does not make much sense
3. This has already been explained in #1.

He had no plan to try and batter down the walls - that was only in the Peter Jackson adaptation, not in the books. Lighter shot requires a smaller catapult to be hurled large distances.

So you admit that heads were thrown? Good, because heads are not light. An average human head weighs from 8 to 12 pounds, as much as a small size stone*. *Rember what I said about the stone. As for firebombs, fire needs fuel. A mere gallon of oil weighs from 7 to 8 pound. Even though there are some wooden component, most of the city's architecture are made out of stone. To cause such large fires, the Mordorians would need a lot of gallons of oil. Of course, Professor Tolkien could escape this criticism by claiming magic.

Th

us, for example, Sauron could observe Denethor had catapults capable of hurling 1-ton boulders, say, 1 mile - and counter by building catapults capable of hurling 10-pound shells & heads 1.2 or 1.3 miles. And, because of the weight differential, his would be far more portable. Then he sets up his trenches 1.2 miles from the wall (1 mile plus the added range from a 700 foot elevation difference) and starts lobbing.

The refutation has already been explained above. Denethor does not have to throw a 1 ton boulder to cause damages. I will admit that the great director, Peter Jackson, does not make much sense here. For the Mordorian machines to throw even light objects much further than artilleries with sheer height advantage, there is no escaping the fact that the machines would have to be very large.