[Bêthberry]

A rather rushed response here, on several levels.

Helen and H-I,

I am very glad that you both found enjoyment in the verse H-I posted. It is a very interesting verse. However, to my mind, that post did not advance the discussion. That is, it did not suggest a new way of looking at the issue or a way to resolve a dilemma or impasse in the discussion. It, and this is simply my humble opinion, was rather more akin to cheerleading and that always makes me rather uncomfortable on a discussion forum, as if the spectators on the 'sides' of the discussion are calling out for their favourite team to win. A discussion is not, to my mind, a sporting event where we must draw sides and where one side must lose, winner take all. It is all of us engaged in a discussion of what our words meanand what are the consequences of our positions and what are our experiences and where do they meet and where converge. I regret if this statement offends, but I feel I must express this disappointment that the discussion apparently is about sides. I am, by the way, viewing this in rhetorical terms of how we handle discussion and not in terms of the content was intriguing.

And let me say here that Child's post provides an example of what I mean by 'advancing the discussion.' I will return to her post later today. For now, however, I think I need to address a crucial point.

davem,

Some of your wording here I think suggests where our impasse lies.

I suppose I may be in the wrong, ... but if I am wrong I'm glad, because I like the fact that Middle Earth is a window on Truth & Joy to me, And that when I put down the book my feelings are closer to grief at the loss of something beloved than to 'narrative cessation'. ... whether its just another escapist fantasy to you or much more than that.

Again, I may be wrong in believing in the existence of Truth & Joy, but if that's the reason I experience Tolkien's stories in the way I do, & am affected by them in the way I am, then I'll choose being wrong.

I cannot see where anyone has called you wrong for your experience of Tolkien, davem, not Fordim, nor Aiwendil nor SaucepanMan and certainly not myself nor Child. In fact, it seems to me that a great deal of effort has been expended towards defending the validity of any one's interpretation.

If you read Tolkien as a kind of religious text, then that is your experience and it is legitimate as your experience. I do not wish to denigrate it nor devalue it. However, reading Tolkien for me is not a religious experience--and I hope that some of my posts here have suggested just how much time I have spent reading texts in religious traditions. (In fact, you have never really acknowledged that I offered a Christian, spiritual tradition--different from that of your mystics--where meaning is held in potential.) I have felt great, overwhelming grief at parts of his work, grief that brought me to my knees (metaphorically speaking), but I will not say this is a religious experience. And I will say that I have found other writers whose reading is similarly affecting for me.

I will also say that you mischaracterise my postion when you suggest that reading Tolkien is either an all or nothing proposition. I have never said that reading him is merely escape or Never-never Land. That is your characterisation, not mine. The reason I think so highly of Tolkien's "On Fairy Stories" is that in fact it liberates fantasy from this niggardly attitude of 'mere escape.' But if you choose to see my reading in this light, then there is little I can do to help you see understand my reading. Will I say you are wrong? No, I will rather say that your own experience seems to leave you with little room for understanding the experience of others except as in complete opposition. The only words that are left, it seems to me, belong to Nienna and we are left with 'a long defeat.'

EDIT. I had meant to include this in the post. It refers again to something davem posted:

If all anyone gets from reading Tolkien?s works is something that can be reduced to that level, then I will go all the way out on this limb & say they?re missing the ?truth? of the story.

.

The great irony here to me is that you are calling your reading the Truth of the Book where to my mind it is rather the freedom of the Reader, you as Reader, to to expound his reading. That you wish to suggest yours is the only correct understanding is, to my mind, unfortunate, because it devalues the experience of others, but , as I said, there clearly is a long defeat and no longer any purpose to continue this discussion. It has been ... enlightening. Thanks to all.

EDIT Wonders never cease! I was cross posting with bilbo_baggins and never saw his post until after I made this one. Horse racing! I was thinking of wrestling or some such sport.