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Elu Ancalime · 02-01-2006, 08:09 PM

No.

One of the first things that came to mind was, the boundary between polytheism and monotheism. Sometimes it is hard to say which is which. All of the Abarhamic religions are, of course, montheist, and then Eru shows the Tolkien world as montheist. However, with the addition of the Valar, namely Manwe and Melkor, there is a little rebuttle.
Eru created Ea, and Arda, and all the Ainur. It seems though, for the most part, after letting Ainu enter Arda, Eru does not come back into the histories. The only exception I can think of would be with the Akabellath, and then it is in action, not in dialogue. I do not think Eru had any part in the council that chose the Heren Istarion. And count the Dwarf incident with Aule if you want, but Eru was involved with the creation of all the Free. (c'mon, hobbits dont count...) So Eru seemed to be, because of the Music, that he was a director in a band/orchestra, and they met for a week, then he let the players go off without him and 'practice' i guess for a year, and at the end of the year he would bring them back and see what they learned and make a greater Music. So although Eru created the Ainur, Ea, and Arda, he virtually left it alone, except for the very beginning, and the very End. So he did not govern Arda, the Valar did.
So while Eru is the (THE) creator of Arda, he did not intervene with The War of the Powers, the First War/Battle, or the War of Wrath, or the the coming of the three elves to Valinor, or even shoving Melko through the Door of Night(not that we're told anyway, but since there is so little recorded about direct confrontation with Eru, it should be assumed he did not take a part in it).
So one way you can compare the Valar (or the Maiar too if you can fit them) is to the Greek Pantheon. The way the Greek Gods came about was, first there was nothing, and that was Chaos. Unlike common religion, the universe created the gods instead of vice versa. The motif that makes it work is that "Things create their opposites." So first there was nothing, and that nothingness created Something. That something was a few things: Love, Dark[ness] (Erebus), and Gaia. Then Darkness has to create its opposite, wich is Light. Then Love comes in, and a way to put is that Gaia wanted a boyfriend. (Gaia is considered the terrestrial Earth) So Gaia had a child, Ouranus (yes pronounced like Uranus, whoch is ironic...just keep reading

) Ouranus becomes the Heavens. So Ouranus + Love + Gaia = more stuff. So borne from Gaia is the Hecatoncries (sp?), who are hundred handed and fifty fingered or something like that

, then three Cyclops, then finally the Titans. Now then the Gods are born from Cronus who takes the throne of the Titans by slicing off Ouranus', erm, anus, and Gaia makes him king Titan basically. So Cronus and another Titan have Zeus and other gods, then the gods rebell.....pointbeing, the gods were not first, yet they governed the Earth. In a sense, Eru might be identified as a 'Chaos', or some metephorical being (like stated in my post about Tom Bombadil) and even though he spoke to the Valar (omitting the fact of Eru being the universe or something) only the Valar can account for that.
Also, ideally, the terrestial earth was already present when the Christian God pulled the 'Let there be Light!', so while Yaweh created everything, the Earth is not mentioned, but surely it must have though, and then Manwe did not create Arda. (though a single command, like you cannot say Aule created Middle-Earth but he did.
Perhaps that is why the Free hold the Valar in high esteem, yet do not mention Eru like they would if they were praying (they would probably pray to Manwe, or the Valar in general).
Eru seemed to be impartial. While he knew Melko was the discord, he didnt go and throw him through any door. So Eru knows what Melkor will do, and it is part of the Plan, really. Because if he got rid of Melko (which he surely held that power) there would be no need for a Second Music, or Arda Marred, and that would eliminate Mandos' prophecy and the existance for all the Tolkien books.
Another thing to think about: With Good vs Evil (i.e. religion of salvation) the scenario is the Creator vs an ally turned Evil (with exception to the fact the evil was always there). But Eru is the creator, and Melko is the Evil. But in no way are they on the same level, for example Melko can not create new things. His real equal (and he is still mightier) is Manwe his brother. Manwe can not create his own things either, because as shown through Aule none of the Valar have access to the Flame Imperishable. And Manwe is the Lord of Arda, and Melko wished to have Arda for his own. Melko had no intention to overthrow Eu, and that is because he cant. Only through Ea could he be equal with Eru, and then still not. So the real struggle is with Manwe, not Eru.

So to answer the poll, I say No, because I say the Valar (namely Manwe) are the true Lords of Arda, and because of that there is struggle, but if Eru was the main opposition of Melko, Eru could 'remove' him from Ea, or perhaps remove Ea from him!

Eru is not the equivalent of the Christian God, rather it is Manwe, who is the closest thing to it.
________
Yamaha Sy99

02-01-2006, 08:09 PM	#261
Elu Ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Anador Posts: 476	No. One of the first things that came to mind was, the boundary between polytheism and monotheism. Sometimes it is hard to say which is which. All of the Abarhamic religions are, of course, montheist, and then Eru shows the Tolkien world as montheist. However, with the addition of the Valar, namely Manwe and Melkor, there is a little rebuttle. Eru created Ea, and Arda, and all the Ainur. It seems though, for the most part, after letting Ainu enter Arda, Eru does not come back into the histories. The only exception I can think of would be with the Akabellath, and then it is in action, not in dialogue. I do not think Eru had any part in the council that chose the Heren Istarion. And count the Dwarf incident with Aule if you want, but Eru was involved with the creation of all the Free. (c'mon, hobbits dont count...) So Eru seemed to be, because of the Music, that he was a director in a band/orchestra, and they met for a week, then he let the players go off without him and 'practice' i guess for a year, and at the end of the year he would bring them back and see what they learned and make a greater Music. So although Eru created the Ainur, Ea, and Arda, he virtually left it alone, except for the very beginning, and the very End. So he did not govern Arda, the Valar did. So while Eru is the (THE) creator of Arda, he did not intervene with The War of the Powers, the First War/Battle, or the War of Wrath, or the the coming of the three elves to Valinor, or even shoving Melko through the Door of Night(not that we're told anyway, but since there is so little recorded about direct confrontation with Eru, it should be assumed he did not take a part in it). So one way you can compare the Valar (or the Maiar too if you can fit them) is to the Greek Pantheon. The way the Greek Gods came about was, first there was nothing, and that was Chaos. Unlike common religion, the universe created the gods instead of vice versa. The motif that makes it work is that "Things create their opposites." So first there was nothing, and that nothingness created Something. That something was a few things: Love, Dark[ness] (Erebus), and Gaia. Then Darkness has to create its opposite, wich is Light. Then Love comes in, and a way to put is that Gaia wanted a boyfriend. (Gaia is considered the terrestrial Earth) So Gaia had a child, Ouranus (yes pronounced like Uranus, whoch is ironic...just keep reading ) Ouranus becomes the Heavens. So Ouranus + Love + Gaia = more stuff. So borne from Gaia is the Hecatoncries (sp?), who are hundred handed and fifty fingered or something like that , then three Cyclops, then finally the Titans. Now then the Gods are born from Cronus who takes the throne of the Titans by slicing off Ouranus', erm, anus, and Gaia makes him king Titan basically. So Cronus and another Titan have Zeus and other gods, then the gods rebell.....pointbeing, the gods were not first, yet they governed the Earth. In a sense, Eru might be identified as a 'Chaos', or some metephorical being (like stated in my post about Tom Bombadil) and even though he spoke to the Valar (omitting the fact of Eru being the universe or something) only the Valar can account for that. Also, ideally, the terrestial earth was already present when the Christian God pulled the 'Let there be Light!', so while Yaweh created everything, the Earth is not mentioned, but surely it must have though, and then Manwe did not create Arda. (though a single command, like you cannot say Aule created Middle-Earth but he did. Perhaps that is why the Free hold the Valar in high esteem, yet do not mention Eru like they would if they were praying (they would probably pray to Manwe, or the Valar in general). Eru seemed to be impartial. While he knew Melko was the discord, he didnt go and throw him through any door. So Eru knows what Melkor will do, and it is part of the Plan, really. Because if he got rid of Melko (which he surely held that power) there would be no need for a Second Music, or Arda Marred, and that would eliminate Mandos' prophecy and the existance for all the Tolkien books. Another thing to think about: With Good vs Evil (i.e. religion of salvation) the scenario is the Creator vs an ally turned Evil (with exception to the fact the evil was always there). But Eru is the creator, and Melko is the Evil. But in no way are they on the same level, for example Melko can not create new things. His real equal (and he is still mightier) is Manwe his brother. Manwe can not create his own things either, because as shown through Aule none of the Valar have access to the Flame Imperishable. And Manwe is the Lord of Arda, and Melko wished to have Arda for his own. Melko had no intention to overthrow Eu, and that is because he cant. Only through Ea could he be equal with Eru, and then still not. So the real struggle is with Manwe, not Eru. So to answer the poll, I say No, because I say the Valar (namely Manwe) are the true Lords of Arda, and because of that there is struggle, but if Eru was the main opposition of Melko, Eru could 'remove' him from Ea, or perhaps remove Ea from him! Eru is not the equivalent of the Christian God, rather it is Manwe, who is the closest thing to it. ________ Yamaha Sy99 Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 10:54 PM.