[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-05

Findegil wrote:

But since we used the possibly later TY as the ruling source in all other querstions we should probably stick to it here.

Agreed; the whole episode should take place in 501, so we can keep "late in the year".

RD-EX-06

Findegil:

Since we had agreed to let Húrin been reluctance to the killing of Mîm by his men I sought it necessary to make Húrin not all knowing in that case. But I might have over done it here since it might not be expected that Húrin did know all details from what the original text says.

I do see your point; but I don't think that Hurin's full knowledge concerning the story would necessarily have any effect on whether or not he was willing to kill Mim.

RD-EX-09 and RD-EX-10

Findegil:

We have no source for the Sil77 dialog. So you might be right to use TT exclusively. But the claim of Mîm that his people had build the halls are based on Quendi and Eldar and are nowwhere else given if we do not introduce it (here and/or in other places). In addition it would be a shame to lose it here. So I think we should use your suggestion.

And Maedhros:

I think that with the justification that Findegil provided, it think that it is safe to keep it, and for that I'm glad.

I am hesitant about using dialogue written by CT unless we really need to. But it is a good point that this particular datum concerning the Petty-dwarves is not elsewhere given. I suppose in view of that we can retain the QS77 dialogue as in my suggestion.

Findegil:

In addition Nulukkizdin must be changed to Nulukhizdīn

Or rather "Nulukkhizdīn" with two "k"s. Good catch.

RD-SL-03

Findegil:

Here as in the TY it is Húrin who kills Mîm the traitor of Túrin. Thus it might be that Tolkien changed his mind on this topic after Q30. But I don't see it as such a easy thing to change, or do we simply go back to TT where Úrin kills Mîm for his behavior and without any other reason or do we put in some Sil77 material?

And Maedhros:

I think that we must make Húrin kill Mîm.

The question is whether the bald sentences in TY and the Narn plot-synopsis are to be taken as formulating a new story or as mere compression. I can imagine that "Hurin slays Mim" in such a context could still represent the Q30 story, even if on the surface it looks like it contradicts it.

But the more I think about it the more forced such an interpretation looks to me. I don't see it as being an especially difficult change to implement; is there any reason not to simply use the TT version?

RD-EX-17

Findegil:

Your suggested changes read better then mine. But I would hold the introduction of Húrins words.

Your suggestion looks good to me.

"name" -> "fame": In the Sil77 Nauglamír is really a name, now the treasure of Glaurung is not really.

Ah. I understand, and agree with the change.

§15: I wanted to hold that phrase out of two reasons, and both are debatable:
1. It did emphasis that Thingol did at first not desired the hoard.
2. It did emphasis the longanimity that Thingol showed Húrin in their encounter.
Both, I think, are dealt with in the TT passage more implicit, than in the later Q30 account.

Maedhros:

I think that we should make every effort to keep that line, and I think that Findegil provided a good reason for it to be done.

Yes, I agree it would be desirable to keep the line. But only if it can be done without awkwardness. It doesn't work to insert it here between Hurin's words and Thingol's reaction to them. Perhaps there's a better way to do it.

Findegil:

I thought that it might be possible to add the part about Húrins admiration for Felagund, and the Information about the sons of Feanor and their reaction to the news.

Yes, I had forgotten about that note, but we ought to include it. Your suggestion is good.

Maedhros wrote:

But there must be a way to include the fact that Húrin was given the dragon helm in Brethil.

Now this is an interesting issue. There are really two distinct things for us to think about here:

1. The Narn - is the projected revision that extends the history of the Dragon-helm beyond the battle on Amon Rudh workable or not? It would require some revision to the Narn, and it's hard to judge how much. If it's not, then the Dragon-helm was not in Brethil, and of course cannot be mentioned here.

2. The Wanderings of Hurin - the note suggesting that Hurin was given the Dragon-helm comes from before the development of the "Hurin in Brethil" story, and indeed from before the development of the character of Hardang. The note has the new lord of the people give the helm to Hurin - but Hardang does not do this in "Wanderings" (and indeed it is very difficult to imagine him doing so). The early conception seems to have been that the new lord would have been friendly with Hurin. For Hurin to receive the Dragon-helm now would require a different story.

Even if we could justify it, it is no easy matter to insert it into the text. It is very awkward to simply say "he was given the Dragon-helm".

For these reasons I fear it may prove impossible for us to use the Dragon-helm (though I admit I would very much like to if it were possible).