View Single Post
Old 01-21-2007, 09:46 AM   #100
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
I've no debate with Tolkien, I have read what he wrote and it's all there in the text. There is no need to seek further clarification as it's there. Simple as. I can fully accept what he says about Eru, the god of this world he creates, despite it being wholly alien to what I believe and wholly alien to what I was taught in Church (a Protestant church). As time has gone by though, I see where it may stem from, from Catholicism. Everything has its root in Eru? Hmm, sounds strikingly similar to the (to me) slightly frightening concept that everything has its root in God as expressed by Catholics in my family, with the only difference being that it was not Men who realised the concept of The Fall but a God.

I have no debate with Tolkien.

But I will ask yet again, where does evil come from?

Does Tolkien lie? When he says:

Quote:
no theme may be played that does not have its uttermost source in me
Is he putting a Lie into the mouth of Eru?

All that is needed to see this is to accept that this god which Tolkien created was omnipotent and by the very definition of that, he created Everything, yes, even Darkness.

Let's go right back to basics, to the beginning:

Quote:
There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iliivatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made.
First there is nothing but Eru. No void. No Ea. No Valar. No good. No evil. There is the All-Father.

Then he makes the Valar, offspring of his thought. And they are Holy Ones because they are the first things he makes, before he makes anything else. They are embodiments of his thought, given the Flame Imperishable to live to exist. They are in fact aspects of Eru himself.

Now the following supports the idea that Holy=Flawless is wrong:

Quote:
But in this 'mythology' all the 'angelic' powers concerned with this world were capable of many degrees of error and failing between the absolute Satanic rebellion and evil of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron, and the fainéance of some of the other higher powers of 'gods'. The 'wizards' were not exempt, indeed being incarnate were more likely to stray, or err. Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). - Letter 156, from 1954
Ah! So here's Tolkien underlining just what I had read in his work! That Holy does not in fact equal flawless!

Quote:
The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators': in various degrees, after this fashion. They interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One. This was propounded first in musical or abstract form, and then in an 'historical vision'. In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introduced alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One then presented this 'Music', including the apparent discords, as a visible 'history'. - Letter 212 - 1958
They were shown by Eru the 'plan' they had all created and then were sent to make it - Ea is formless when they enter. In their music they sing of what it will be and Melkor alters his tune, but we cannot get away from the fact that no theme may be played that does not have its uttermost source in Eru. So despite him thinking he can be altering it to his own advantage, he still cannot alter what Eru has put there, which is the potential for darkness. Have you heard of Elgar's Enigma Variations? This is a suite of music, each tune said to possess a mysterious melody which cannot be identified, but each very, very different; that is how The Music works - each Valar sings a tune from one source, each of their tunes is unique but they all share the common source.

Quote:
The Knowledge of the Creation Drama was incomplete: incomplete in each individual 'god', and incomplete if all the knowledge of the pantheon were pooled. For (partly to redress the evil of the rebel Melkor, partly for the completion of all in an ultimate finesse of detail) the Creator had not revealed all. - Letter 131, from 1951 (before LotR was published)
That tells us nothing about where Melkor came from and why he is how he is, but it does tell us something about why Eru did not reveal all the Vision, something which Tolkien does not tell us in the text. So Eru wants it kept secret in part to battle the evil he created the world with?

Quote:
Knowledge of the Story as it was when composed, before realization, gave [the Valar] their measure of fore-knowledge; the amount varied ver much, from the fairly complete knowledge of the mind of the Creator in this matter possessed by Manwë, the 'Elder King', to that of lesser spirits who might have been interested only in some subsidiary matter (such as trees or birds). Some had attached themselves to such major artists and knew things chiefly indirectly through their knowledge of the minds of these masters. Sauron had been attached to the greatest, Melkor, who ultimately became the inevitable Rebel and self-worshipper of mythologies that begin with a transcendant unique Creator. ...

The Creator did not hold himself aloof. He introduced new themes into the original design, which might therefore be unforeseen by many of the spirits in realization... - Letter 200, from 1957
Again, Tolkien underlines what I'm saying, that this all beagn with the Creator, Eru.

Have you actually considered what Arda would have been like if Eru had not created Melkor? There would be no snow, no storms, no ice, no dragons, no failing Frodo, no heroic Aragorn, no jealous Boromir, no sneaky Gollum, no proud Feanor, etc etc...all of these are as a result of Melkor 'marring' the vision. In fact the creation of Men and Elves is seemingly as a direct result of Melkor's dicordancy - Eru raises his hand and brings that thought into the vision after Melkor has sung.

Melkor's trouble is that having been made possesing all of the aspects that all of his kin possess, he effectively has everything that Eru has, apart from the Flame and Eru's Authority. And he wants that. But Eru made him. There is no way of getting away from that fact unless you care to rewrite the Silmarillion and issue it as your own book.

EDIT: I've been looking for this, which may illuminate some of Tolkien's thought:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah 45:07
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
__________________
Gordon's alive!

Last edited by Lalwendë; 01-21-2007 at 11:40 AM.
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote