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Old 05-08-2013, 03:29 PM   #22
Troelsfo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
Even if Tolkien had indeed intended for Morgoth early on to be a creator (which I think is still debatable),
If you read the first five volumes of The History of Middle-earth, you will soon see that this is not really debatable: this is clearly Tolkien's intention. You have him use phrases stating that Morgoth “devised” the Orcs or “brought into being” their race. Christopher Tolkien is also explicit in relation to The Book of Lost Tales, saying that “There is no trace yet of the later view that ‘naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning’”. This later view enters into the mythology after Tolkien had finished The Lord of the Ring (Morgoth's Ring (HoMe 10), part 2 ‘The Annals of Aman’ §45 p. 74), and clearly in response to the development during the writing of LotR, which is also expressed in the letters from which you quoted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
it seems clear the idea was abandoned later, possibly, as I said, out of a desire on the part of the author to avoid elevating the world's Prime Evil to a status on par with the True Creator.
Yes, as I said, Tolkien changed his ideas during the writing of The Lord of the Rings, and that work therefore contains passages that are written based on the old view. Treebeard's statement is an example of this — regardless of what Tolkien said later, when he had changed his mind, Treebeard was stating the correct lore as Tolkien saw it when he wrote it. I suppose that Tolkien would have edited these passages more heavily if they had been wholly inconsistent with the later ideas, but knowing how his ideas evolved it is quite clear that the Rohan chapters are informed by the earlier conception of the origins of the Orcs. After he had finished writing The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien had clearly changed his conception of the Orcs and now considered them corrupted Eruhíni, and he decided, no later than ca. 1951, that they were corrupted from Elves caught early on, and t. This view was, however, not entirely without problems either, and when he went back to the Silmarillion mythology about 1959 he was very concerned with these problems. how could the corruption be inheritable? Were the perhaps nothing but mindless automata? Or were they perhaps to be considered beasts without fëar? Etc. Etc. These considerations are documented in the ‘Myths Transformed’ section (part 4) of Morgoth's Ring, and show that Tolkien was aware that his chosen solution was not perfect either, and he was searching for a way out. He always seems to come back to the idea of the Orcs as corrupted Eruhíni (though not necessarily always Elves), but he is obviously not entirely happy with that choice either (particularly the question of their being irredeemable and their corruption being inheritable while they at the same time supposedly were free-willed and had fëar {roughly corresponding to the soul of Christian thinking}).

So, yes, Tolkien did abandon the idea that the Ainur > Valar could create a new race (though from pre-existing matter), but the idea was clearly present in the early history of the mythology and in the earlier parts of The Lord of the Rings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
Also, consider the situation of Morgoth's peer, Aulë. He did 'create' on his own, or at least made the attempt with the Dwarves. But that act was futile as a measure of creation. The Dwarves had no true life or fea until it was provided by the One. Otherwise, as he said to Aulë, the 'creations' would have had no independent thought or being, mere 'breathing meat'.
But the whole text describing the making of the Dwarves by Aulë’ is also quite late — after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, IIRC (there were some brief hints in earlier text that Aulë had made the Dwarves, but no details, and the simple statement that he had made them implies rather that there was no intervention by Eru).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
As for the wholesale, remorseless slaughter of the Orcs, I think it can be attributed to the length of time the 'good guys' had been dealing with them, which had led to a view of them as uncurable, implacable enemies.
Not according to the laws as described later, according to which the Orcs should always be spared if they surrendered:
Quote:
But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not ‘made’ by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.
(Morgoth's Ring (HoMe 10), part 5 ‘Myths Transformed’, text X, p. 419)

Clearly many of the Orcs before the Hornburg and would have surrendered if they could: they were fleeing into the wood of huorns). Thus, IF we accept the Orcs as corrupted Eruhíni, creatures with fëar, the whole way of dealing with the Orcs before Helm's Deep becomes inconsistent with the ethics described in the above passage, but also with the ethics later expounded by Faramir
Quote:
War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor; and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise.
Tolkien's Catholicism is not particularly obvious in the earliest parts of his legendarium — particularly in The Book of Lost Tales the basis is not particularly Catholic (beyond The Music of the Ainur with its monotheistic omnipotent and omniscient Creator). Tolkien himself wrote that The Lord of the Rings only became consciously Catholic in the revision, and this, in my considered opinion, marks the point when the whole mythology became consciously Catholic. Before the writing of LotR there is no hint of Tolkien being particularly concerned about staying consistent with his faith (the ability of the Ainur > Valar to actually create sapient creatures is a clear example), but after LotR he is clearly very conscientious about this; a factor that contributed to the whole Silmarillion project bogging down in endless niggling.
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