[The Saucepan Man]

Wow! Thanks for all the thoughtful and thought-provoking replies. I need some time to assimilate them all.

But, for the time being, a few further thoughts ...

When I fist started this thread, I was thinking whether the characters deserved redemption in the eyes of their maker, ie Iluvatar. But, as my egg-laying friend points out, that takes us into the realms of guessing as to his will. Speculating as to whether they deserve redemption in the eyes of their fellow ME inhabitants entails speculating on the motives of those fellow beings. So I will restrict myself to considering whether they deserve redemption in the eyes of us, the readers (although please feel free to discuss this subject on one of the other levels mentioned).

One common theme running through the replies is the analysis of the motives of the various characters discussed for doing what they did. If they acted from an evil motive, beings such as Melkor and Sauron being the best examples, then they are beyond redemption. But if they acted from a desire to good, as we all seem to agree Boromir did, then they are redeemed.

It is the characters that come somewhere in between that are the most interesting on this topic. Gollum is a great example. I don't agree that he was damned from the outset. We are never told whether he was an unpleasnat sort before encountering the Ring. Yes, he murdered Deagol without ever having touched it, but then Boromir attacked Frodo (and could well have killed him) without ever having touched it either (book Boromir, that is, not film Boromir). In my view, all of Gollum's "evil" acts were perpetrated under the influence of the Ring. So why does he not deserve redemption? I think that, together with Frodo and the Blue Elf, we can view him with some sympathy.

Wormtongue is a different kettle of fish. We are not told much about what he was like before being influenced by Saruman, but we can perhaps guess that he was someone who disregarded higher vaues for personal power (yes, Hilde, you are quite possibly right that his lust for Eowyn was part of a greater lust for power). So, even his act of killing Saruman might not redeem him if he started from improper motives.

It is fair to say that the Dunlendings and the races of Men that allied themselves with Sauron cannot be judged as a whole. Some (their leaders?) were probably motivated by the promise of power. Others were too fearful of what might happen to them if they did not follow (we were only following orders ...). I think that the Dunlendings are probably the more sympathetic, since they seem to have been motivated from the honestly-held belief that they had been unjustly treated by the Rohirrim.

Which brings us to Saruman, who I had not included on my original list. He started out with just purpose, as one of the Istari tasked with guiding the peoples of ME in their struggle against Sauron. He was corrupted by a lust for power (whether as a vassal of Sauron or the ruler of ME in his own right). But, I understand from discussions on other threads that he was jealous of Gandalf from the outset. So, perhaps he started out with improper motives. And, even if he did not, the fact the he, far more than the likes of Gollum or Boromir, understood exactly what was at stake and what the consequences of his actions would be, makes him undeserving of our sympathy.