View Single Post
Old 10-07-2013, 07:51 PM   #25
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,299
Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blantyr View Post
It's just based on examples in the book. In my large post above, note the prophecies made just before conflict involved major characters just before critical conflicts. The speakers were Gandalf, the Witch King, Frodo, and Eowyn. The conflicts were critical to the history of Middle Earth.
The thing is, if it's not something major, what's the point of a prophecy? Actually, let me rephrase that. I don't like the word prophecy because it seems limiting to "official" declarations, like Malbeth's famous prophecies. I prefer the word foretellings, because often the prediction is mingled with personal feelings and the "seer" is unaware of making a prophecy. So, once again, if I say, "I have a feeling I will write a post in about ten seconds", and then write a post in ten seconds, that's not something you'd call a prophecy. Even if I wasn't talking about myself.

Many foretellings are invoked by the expectations or consequences of a major event, but I think that this is due to the fact that foresight comes to people with a strong innate spirit (wondering, is there any exception to this?) which is something that strengthens during a big conflict. Also, these are the kind of people that would become heroes in that conflict.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blantyr
You mention elven / Numenorian foresight. The primary examples in LoTR are Aragorn's warning to Gandalf about entering Moria, Aragorn warning the forces of Saruman at Helm's Deep, and Aragorn telling Eomer they would draw swords together again, though all the power of Mordor would separate them.
That's true, but I meant more the general references to "Numenorian/Elvish blood". Being born to one of the higher houses gives you the strong willpower that also characterizes the said houses. The ability to foretell things seems to increase with the "purity of bloodlines", so to speak. Which is not to say that only Elves/Numenorians can do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blantyr
What I don't recall seeing is relatively minor characters at not particularly important times attempting to foretell victory. In a role playing environment, the power of prophecy would be ever so abusable if anyone at any time as often as he liked could yell "I'm going to kill you" every time he draws his sword. Magic ought not to be that quick and easy. Thus, you don't see Merry, Pippin, Legolas, Gimli or Boromir making little speeches before they turn from one orc to the next.
I would disagree on the basis that you're saying it's the speaker that causes the magic of foresight/curse/prophesy. I think that foresight is a power, not a weapon. You can't decide to use it when you think you need it. It doesn't work that way. It's not the same as Gandalf's Word of Command. You don't call on it, it calls on you.

As for foretelling victory, why, you can't do it unless there's a conflict, otherwise there would be no one to be victor over! But here are some examples of foretelling without relating to a battle conflict or the major conflict at the given moment:

Quote:
But foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: "An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfil it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit." ~Of the Noldor in Beleriand, The Sil
Quote:
Melian said nothing to him at that time, but afterwards she said to Galadriel: "Now the world runs swiftly to great tidings. And one of Men, even of Beor's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him..." ~Of the Coming of Men Into the West, The Sil
Quote:
The Turin looked out westward, and he saw far off the great height of Amon Rudh; and unwitting of what lay before him he answered: "You have said, seek me in Dimbar. But I say, seek me on Amon Rudh!" ~Of Turin Turambar, The Sil
Quote:
Originally Posted by blantyr
I also find that curses, prophecies and wishes are very much akin. I'd like to think Aragorn's warning to Gandalf regarding Moria was a prophecy rather than a curse or a wish, ...
I prefer to think of it as a bad feeling, which, in essence, is foresight. So I suppose we're approaching the same idea from different ends here. I think that many times people do not realize that they are foretelling an event when they say something, since the foretelling or sursing has a lot to do with wishing it to be that way or feeling that way about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bantyr
But this is all subjective opinion. I think Words matter in Middle Earth. I just don't think they are or should be used lightly, casually or often. If prophesying makes things so, Gandalf would have given everyone a lecture on Prophesying 101 before setting out from Rivendell. Clearly, a wizard or a heir of Númenor would be better than most at using words, but they don't totally monopolize the ability.
Once again, I'm the last person to deny the power of Words, especially in ME. But it's not people who master their power (in the sense of foresight/prophecy/curse), but the words that sometimes come to the people. So Gandalf couldn't have possibly given a lecture on it. Nor could they possibly be used lightly and often.
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

Last edited by Galadriel55; 10-07-2013 at 08:43 PM. Reason: Fixed quote and typos
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote