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Old 10-25-2017, 08:00 PM   #33
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
BoT-24, BoT-25: I do not agree to this. Following MT Melkor is to mighty at this time to be overcome. But none the less he can fell into fear seeing the reaction of the Valar and take to flight back to Utumno, which he reaches before Tulkas can overtake him. And in Utumno he is safe since the Valar could not afford the craft needed to overcome Utumnos fortifications because they had to save what could be saved f their work.
My concern was just that there is a slight contradiction if we say first that the Valar did not overcome Melkor because Utumno was too strong and then immediately say that the Valar did not overcome Melkor because they were busy saving what could be saved of their work. However, you may be right that it could be a combination of both explanations. Maybe all that is needed here is a slight editorial insertion to connect the two extracts, like:

Quote:
BoT-24<AAm In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwë as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas. But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid. And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for <LQ {In the darkness and the confusion of the seas the Valar could not at that time overcome Melkor; for} his strength had increased with his malice, and he had now gathered to his service many other spirits, and many evil things also of his own making.> And moreover the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterward they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.>
Quote:
Silpion: It seems we only can chose which fact we will create: either Lorien named the Tree not Silpion but Teleperion or the name given by Lorien did not become the normally used one. I tend to the second.
True. I don't have a strong opinion on this, so I'm fine with using "Silpion" if that's your preference.

Quote:
Gathering of the Lights: If you feel safer not using the names, that is okay for me. So our solution is to use the descriptions of the cauldrons but name them “wells” as it was in the latest version and take the two as the only wells?
All right, yes, though part of me wants to use the names, I think they are not suitable in later Quenya. So we'll skip the names and replace the cauldrons with "wells".

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BD-12: The argument that the Eldarin Yén form LotR is a different unit from the Valian Year referred to here does not hold any water for me. It is for me unbeleiveable, that he Eldar in Middle-earth (specially the Exiles) would use a longer entity for the measurement of time then the Valar in Valinor. If the relation would be the other way around (Eldar counting with 10 time of a Year of the Sun and the Valar with 144 times) I could agree to it. But why should the Eldar in Middle-earth use a longer period?
I'm puzzled by this as well, but this is a conclusion I can't escape when looking at the history of Appendix D and of the Annals. But the more I think about it, the more I think I could accept it. The yen need not be a comparable unit to the Valian year - after all, if one person speaks in terms of miles and another in meters, that doesn't mean that they must have radically different concepts of distance.

But that's a moot point. If you find the issue too uncertain, we can do as you suggest, skipping the passage and avoiding references to Valian years.

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Yes, but under the assumption that we were following the structure of AAm. What is now the reason for postponing the descriptions from the time in the story where they are build? The structure of Ainulindalë D we did not use. So why follow it here?
Ah, I understand what you mean. I suppose there's no pressing reason to put this passage at the end of the chapter. But some of the description here from Ainulindale D telling of the Valar's behaviour during these ages (particularly Yavanna's and Orome's trips to Middle-earth) seems to me like it should come after we have told all about the Trees and the darkness in Middle-earth. And I very much prefer to have all this description of the dwellings and behaviour of the Valar together, so I am still somewhat inclined to put it at the end of the chapter. I do see that putting it earlier would have the advantage that it allows us to tell of the dwellings of the Valar at the time when they are built (as in LT), but I still find the placement at the end somewhat better. However, I won't be obstinate about this, so if you both definitely want to put it earlier, I could probably find a way to agree to that.
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