[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Thank you for you reply, Galadriel! And I hope you will have patience to read mine too - and, maybe, understand a thing or two I have raved about.

More like "the homework will have enough patience to wait until after I reply"

Originally Posted by Arvegil

Túrin was proud - overproud. He brought his "curse" upon himself - or if we want to go "cosmic", then Ilúvatar himself "cursed him".

Turin brought the curse on himself - yes. (Which in my opinion does not contradict Morgoth's curse: bad luck and action are separate but can coexist).

(Saying that, though, I can understand where the opinion that Turin's life was his own fault comes from, even if I don't entirely agree.)

Iluvatar "cursed him" - no. Having created what there was to be created, he kind of set back and watched from afar. The only time he interfered with the ways of the world was when the Valar - his "secretaries" - all called to him for help with the upstart Numenorians. That intervention was preceded by an undermining of the good of the world by the hopelessly corrupt(ed by Sauron) and unconvincible nation, and the plea of the Valar who felt this "heresy" to be beyond their scope of work. Curse Turin? For what? His pride? But is that really enough to make his life - and the life of those around him - a drawn-out torture? Would Iluvatar really a) intervene in the first place, and b) still have suffering follow Turin around wherever he goes? If he wants to teach Turin a lesson and is providing opportunities for repentance - ok, but what lesson was he teaching to Beleg and Gwindor and Finduilas and Brandir and so many unnamed others? No, I cannot accept that Turin's misfortunes were a result of Eru's approval, much less his decision.

The other big issue I have with that is related to the Catholic influence on the Eru/Valar roles. One thing that really bothers me in real life is when theological texts or articles or the like portray a monotheistic God as essentially a policeman with a beating stick, handing out rewards and punishments. I feel like if you believe in God, whatever the specifics of this God, it is not because he threatens you with eternal punishment if you don't and with great rewards if you do; it is for greater reasons. Same applies to Eru. I can't see him going, "Turin? Too proud. Assign punishment of magnitude 9 on the Richter scale. Tuor is much nicer, though, I think I'll give him some candy." That's just fundamentally wrong.

Originally Posted by Arvegil

The TIME is no different than the SPACE - it has its boundaries, which, inside a finite universe, they are set. If Ilúvatar is omnipotent, he cannot be omniscient, and vice-versa.

And IF Ilúvatar is ONLY omniscient he is bound by his knowledge of both past, present, and the future - therefore, there is no deed which he can do that he didn't foresee.

And IF Ilúvatar is ONLY omnipotent, than he cannot see the future (which includes his OWN actions). But then again, if he is omnipotent he SHOULD be able to see the future (one aspect of omnipotence - ability to do ANYTHING at will) - and then WHAT?

Omnipotence and omniscience are NOT compatible. Unless you are willing to do some really elaborate mental gymnastics. And even then, you would only break your bones.

If you're referring to the comment at the bottom of my previous post, I think we're talking about different things here. The message I got from your posts was that you believe Eru "cursed" Turin. To elaborate: Turin originally had a happier, or at least different fate; Eru cursed him, thus changing Turin's fate; Turin's fate now sucks. The key word here is "change". From what I gather, I think you agree with me that we don't "change" fates - as you say in #10, free will is ignorance of the influencing factors***, and that any attempted change is actually part of fate. Saying that Eru curses Turin implies that without this curse, Turin would have had a better/different life, and Eru intentionally changed his fate. Also, beyond this hypothetical knot, there's another thing that bothers me here. It chafes me in real religions and it chafes me in your descriptions. You place Eru in a position where he can influence fate, where he has control over fate. He is a being that can interact with the world, and yet he can influence fate. That's equivalent to a referee also being a player. Fate, to me, seems like a thing above all the players - even omnipotent or omniscient ones. It just seems wrong to me that fate is controlled by anyone, because as soon as the tiniest subconscious thought (not to say anything of intention or action) of influencing fate appears, the person already joins the game. They are already a player whose moves are laid out.

Originally Posted by Arvegil

Concerning Túrin - we can only speculate - his story reminds me of ancient Nordic sagas in which FAITH had an integral part - faith, mind you, in the sense of a path set before the individual by forces greater than his own. And, interestingly enough, I subscribe to this view of the world.

I don't disagree with that. I disagree with the view that Eru controls or embodies fate/faith/destiny. I feel like it's a thing beyond even his reach.



*** And on the topic of fate, free will, and God, I'm wondering if you by any chance are familiar with Spinoza? I can't boast to be familiar with many philosophers, but from among those that I've encountered this guy is my hero. I don't align with him 100%, but his conceptions align with my own in many cases. And at any rate, from a historical point of view I think he can be described as an atheist that is actually a monotheist. It's pretty cool. His description of "free" will is very similar to you described it, which is why I'm asking you about it. He says that It's an illusion born of ignorance of the causes of that decision. Once the causes are identified, though, you can see that they come out of the causes and not out of the blue, the present comes out directly from the past, and therefore there is only one possible way things could end up and history could flow.

(And the flip side of that is utter skepticism in any causality, that connections between "cause" and "effect" exist only in our minds and patterns of nature could just be a repeated coincidence. I don't think that's a very viable way of thinking, but it is fun to employ it to sneer at science. Water boils on the stove because it is heated? Oh please. )


Anyways, it seems to me like we actually hold more similar real life views than I thought originally, and on this thread disagree more about Eru's role in Arda's metaphysics than Turin's actual story. I love philosophical debates, and I'm really enjoying our discussion. I can't pass up a chance to talk about Turin and metaphysics at once (and possibly convert more people to "Spinoza-ism")! Thanks for making and carrying on this thread, and I hope I don't scare away other people with my rants.