[Thenamir]

This is a highly-condensed log of the chat in the Downs chatroom on Wednesday, June 11. I thought it interesting enough to post here and seek other comments. Enjoy!

Thenamir

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[Bethberry] I wonder, Thena, do you suppose that elves understood time the same way that men and hobbits and dwarves did?

[hanna|OSH] not likely Bb

[Legolas] Maybe, Bethberry, but I guess Elves measured in larger chunks of time.

[Legolas] Elves might measure in smaller chunks of time, since they're immortal, bored, and have plenty to do.

[Bethberry] smaller or larger, Legolas?

[Legolas] I can't decide.

[Legolas] I know they measure in months, weeks, etc. and then they measure in yeni ..

[Thenamir] In answer to your question, Bb, I have no definitive idea, but it is my feeling that they perceived time in the same manner as dwarves and men, but it means less to them because of their endless lives.

[hanna|OSH] When the fellowship was in Lorien time was speeded up.

[Legolas] And what Thenamir said.

[Thenamir] In other words, men and dwarves are probably more concerned about time, more prone to hurry-up-and-get-things-done kind of thinking. Elves don't have that problem.

[Bethberry] That is their problem then, that they cannot appreciate time and change.

[Legolas] Of course elves don't like change.

[Thenamir] Well, on the other hand, they appreciated time and change enough to forge rings to try to prevent the ravages of time from affecting their environments

[Thenamir] They were concerned about time in the manner that they knew it would alter the things they thought most beautiful

[Nova|OSH] why don't they like changes?

[Bethberry] But that was more a rejection of change rather than a desire to direct change in positive ways, no?

[Thenamir] Exactly

[Legolas] They don't like change, period.

[Legolas] They want to keep things the way they are.

[Thenamir] I think they perceived the passing of time as we do, but did not want it to affect them

[Legolas] And they are content with that.

[Legolas] But in the Third Age, the Elves realized that they couldn't really do anything to stop Middle-Earth from changing, it seems.

[Legolas] So they just let the Men take over and they went to Valinor.

[Thenamir] It's kind of like the colonists in the movie "Star Trek: Insurrection" -- they did not age, and presumably would live forever if they stayed on that planet, so it did not matter to them that they would spend 40 years as an "apprentice" at some skill -- becuase they would have unlimited time to learn and grow.

[Legolas] Yes.

[Bethberry] But ironically this produced the opposite effect.

[Thenamir] How so, Bb?

[Legolas] They learned and grew and yet limited themselves to the outside world?

[Legolas] Or to themselves, rather.

[Thenamir] The great thing about the elves is that they used the time they had to continue to create and mature. Men, given the same opportunity, would waste their time rather than using it wisely.

[Bethberry] I'm not sure we can say that about elves, Thena, that they did use their time wisely.

[Bethberry] The elves in The Silm were particularly childish, petulant, selfish, willful.

[Thenamir] Well, I mean in the sense that they became well-skilled in many crafts and arts

[Legolas] Bethberry, but the Elves learned from their mistakes.

[Bethberry] Did they?

[Legolas] They didn't give birth to another Feanor

[Thenamir] It is worthy of note that, once the elves realized they could no longer preserve their little slices of the past, they high-tailed it to Valinor.

[Silme] I would have done the same thing

[HorseMaiden] I thought it was quite ignorant, though, how they believed they were the only beings capable of speech in Beleriand, and when they met the men they were surprised that they could speak.

[Legolas] When you're the Firstborn, you think that you're the only ones capable.

[Thenamir] It may be worthy of note that this may be the reason that Elves were only a temporary part of the great Theme of Iluvatar -- they were the ones who wanted no change...men could embrace and adapt to change.

[Silme] embrace? well, at least cope with it

[Legolas] So the Elves were afraid of disappearing from the world?

[Legolas] I would be too ..

[Bethberry] Thena, did Iluvatar see that the elves would be a temporary part?

[Thenamir] Men want to advance, make things better. Elves want to stay the same. Men are progressive, elves are stagnant.

[Thenamir] men can see that the future holds promise. Elves think the best days are already behind them.

[Thenamir] Iluvatar *Composed* the Theme, Bb. He foresaw it all.

* Legolas certainly can understand why the elves are so bitter.

[Legolas] The whole WORLD

[Thenamir] Men look forward. Elves look back.

[Silme] Thena, did he foresee the other theme of Melkor?

[Bethberry] then we run into all the problem of whether he expected the maring of Arda.

[Silme] the discordance?

[Nova] Elves look back for what reason?

[Silme] nostalgia

[Bethberry] I think many first readers of LOTR do not see that aspect of the elves.
[Legolas] Men seem to run blindly forth, while Elves just sit and ponder.

[Thenamir] Silme, I certainly think so. FOr in the Silmarillion he said "None can alter the theme in My despite, for in so doing he will see that his changes are only part of the theme after all, that no part of the theme can exist without having its ultimate source in Me." That's a paraphrase, but close.

[Silme] thanks, Thena, just a thought

[Thenamir] [Legolas] Men seem to run blindly forth, while Elves just sit and ponder. <<--- That's a good point Legolas -- men are not afraid to make [and learn from] mistakes by going forth blindly. The Elves were too afraid of change to do that.
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The conversation degenerated back to the usual chaos after that...