[davem]

Helen

Quote:'If Frodo had returned there, would he have felt the same thing he did during his winter there; or would it have just been another forest with nice trees? Was Arwen's final journey fruitless and disappointing, or were the echoes still there?'

I'm not sure its a question of 'echoes' - because this brings in the concept of serial time. In A Question of Time Flieger uses Dunne's theories, which influenced Tolkien greatly, to show how from the perspective of eternity, all 'time', all an individual's life, may be accessible from a 'higher' or spiritual perspective - so Frodo's 'spiritual' self could observe any point in his life - I'm uncomfortable to push this idea, because it endangers the 'poetry'.

All moments are aspects or fragments of eternity, & as such, are in a sense 'eternally' present. Arwen & Aragorn are 'always' in that moment on Cerin Amroth. They never leave it - of course, on another level, from another perspective, they do leave it & their lives continue. But the moment is eternal & never ends - it can be accessed at any time as a memory, without having to run through their whole story mentally to get up to that point. How come? How come it is possible to pass into that point alone, unconnected to the rest of the story, as Bethberry can pick the quote from the book, give us that single moment, without having to quote the whole book? And when we read the quote, we see them walking there, & only that. Its like Niggle's leaf, which ends up in the museum, & exists as a painting in its own right, detatched from its context, but eternally perfect in its own right. Perhaps all eternity is simply a sequence of such moments, which exist outside of serial time. Lorien itself is a 'moment' outside time, & even though in serial time it 'was not, had been, is not', each 'moment' of its existence is forever 'present'

I think that there is a danger of trying to fit eternity into some 'theory'. On some level, which I can't put into words, I know what Tolkien is saying. It seems obvious, if I don't analyse it, that Frodo will always walk on Cerin Amroth - indeed it would seem 'wrong' to think that he didn't. Its the same with Aragorn & Arwen. How could they not - perhaps Arwen, still thinking like an Elf, but perhaps also having lost the capacity to 'remember' as she once could, or confused by grief, thought she was somehow returning to that moment - or perhaps she did return there, & was again as she was when she walked there with Aragorn.

Such moments seem to exist without the necessity for context. Our lives pass without notice mostly, but sometimes we 'awake', stepping off the beaten track, into eternity, & the moment never ends, never begins, really, because it 'is', & so always will be.

I'm struck by the feelings of the Fellowship, as they leave Lorien:

As they passed her they turned & their eyes watched her slowly floating away from them. for so it seemed to them: Lorien was slipping backward, like a bright ship masted with enchanted trees, sailing on to forgotten shores, while they sat helpless upon the margin of the grey & leafless world'.

They have left Lorien, & returned to the 'beaten track'. Yet Lorien for them is not a geographical location, it is their memory, & that memory includes their own presence there - they will never be able to remember it objectively, without their own presence there, so, in memory (at the least) they will always 'be' there. Frodo's memory of Lorien will always be a memory of being there himself, and the emotions which arise will be the emotions he felt while there. And when we remember the story, we remember it with Frodo & the Fellowship present. For Frodo 'Lorien' is not a 'place', it is his time there. For Arwen & Aragorn it must be the same - but their memories will not come back to them as blur of events over many visits, but of individual moments, arising at different times.

And yet, is it 'more than memory' we are speaking of? Is memory more than a replaying of what was? Could it be that 'memory' is an 'Elvish' thing for us too, & that when we 'remember' we are in some way back where we were,back in that moment? The moment has passed into eternity, & so become eternally present for us?

How can Frodo not walk forever on Cerin Amroth? How can Aragorn & Arwen not walk there forever, hand in hand? Eternity won't go away, & everything in it is forever.

(I'm still struggling with what I want to say here, & it probably doesn't make too much sense.)