[HerenIstarion]

Yes, they brought woe on themselves & others - but that does not deny the good they did - as a direct result of their 'sins'

Than you once again contradict your own maxim of elven inability to play bad theme in good direction. For Noldor are elves, are not they? But, and but, and but again only Eru can bring good out of evil, for:

The woe they brought about is direct consequence of their pride. So, evil results in evil

The good they brought about is direct consequence of their virtues - valour, courage etc. i.e. good results in good

So men are excluded too, boom ta ra ram, for the principle works for them in the same way. Turin's pride ended him suicide, but his courage killed Glaurung. And there is no paradox here, for all I can think. Quite the contrary – the paradox of evil coming out of good and vice versa is thus easily solved. Noldor were not, after all, completely evil, but the dominant, the driving power of their deeds was pride, so overall, on the general plane they could not have succeded unless repenting, but in minor results, which proceeded from their retained virtues, no restrictions were set. And that's why all the good they contrived was vain – being grounded on their evil, it was of no avail

This is simply a manifestation of the Elves backward looking stance - seeking to get back to the known, while Men are forward looking, ever seeking the unknown.

I've already agreed that this may be the case. On the other hand, I have (I believe, successfully ) postulated that once the marring is healed, there will be no problem for elves of change-accepting kind.

So, was their 'pride' ever 'good' as you say the Elven Rings were originally

You missed my point ('thanks' to wording, I reckon – 'Not the right thing to do' is to be applied to forging of the Elven rings, not to what you've said about it. To the contrary, I was saying that elven rings were bad thing to do from the beginning. So, it seems, we are saying same thing here.

The Elven Rings are not 'morally good' & the One 'morally evil' - they are objects which are used by individuals, & it is the individual's intent which should be judged.

So this maxim is also accepted by me. (But then, were did the good jet and bad fighter as part of the music got to, I wonder? and which only men can split as different concepts?) Side note only – The Great Ring is stated to hold part of Sauron's original will, and has an ability to bend handler's will to evil, so it ceases to be mere object (as described up above, found by handler with no previous bias) but is a bit more. But this side note is not revelant. It may be said that Great Ring is merely object. Still more, individual has to have patterns of mind similar to that of Sauron's, and similar intentions already there to be affected (hence no effect of the Ring on Tom, and great dread on Gandalf's part even to touch it) – or, your statement of motives under creation of rings also found acceptable

The noldorin pride might have been good up to some point, but a little bit before making of the silmarils it was already going bad.

Definition of 'good' pride I have none but to rephrase C.S. Lewis' paragon (I don't remember the book where it is to be found, so have to give my own wording, but I do remember the essence – 'to be the best architect in the world, apply skill and build the best building there ever was, and be glad about it, but no more than you might have been if someone else have had erected said building'. Or better still, to, 'see that some thing is good and be content' (no matter who did it)

What Valar did/did not re

Here I spy with my little eye something beginning with s, or here comes another shifting of gear for our discussion:

idiotic Manwe re:

Myths Transformed

Of Manwe it was said, when Melkor was allowed to go freely about Valinor, that he believed that his evil was cured: for he himself was free from the evil and could not comprehend it