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davem · 04-07-2004, 02:29 AM

Quote:And both Noldor and Turin brought woe upon others besides themselves.
Besides, only when Noldor reach the state of humiliation and self-denial Frodo was evincing, they are granted 'salvation' – i.e. passage to the West. And Frodo is too granted the healing there – a reward not often distributed among mortals. Would it so happen that Noldor (in the person of Earendil) haven't prayed for mercy, of what avail would have been all their valour and bravery?

Yes, they brought woe on themselves & others - but that does not deny the good they did - as a direct result of their 'sins', not as a result of Eru changing or manipulating the result. We can't assume that they wouldn't have felt that it wasn't all a failure to be repented of. In this instance one could say the Valar, by their inaction, are just as much at fault, & share some of the responsibility for the sufferings of the inhabitants of ME - though they are not held accountable - don't we have examples here of sins of comission (the Noldor) & sins of Omission (the Valar). Dealing with Morgoth is the Valar's responsibility, not the Noldor's. And what of Manwe's (foolish? idiotic?) decision to release Melkor from Mandos? Who starts this tragedy? But Manwe is not held accountable in any way.

Of what avail would have been their bravery? Well, Morgoth was held in check for a good part of the first Age - at the very least he wasn't allowed to have things all his own way, & become a threat to the whole of ME, including Valinor - which the Valar's inaction would have risked happening. Its entirely possible that the Valar's survival (at least as rulers of ME) is in large part entirely down to the Noldor in ME.

Quote:Perception re: All things are possible, and either of us may be right, but I will rather hold on to textual evidence as voiced by Finrod (up: Forever beautiful and new).

Finrod is expressing the Elvish perspective, not the human. He thinks like an elf. But constantly new things would not have to replace each other with such speed as you suggest. My feeling is that the Elves want to be surrounded constantly with the 'known', but in such a way that that 'known' is percieved with a feeling of 'newness'. Men on the other hand would seek the wholly new - things they had never experienced before. This is simply a manifestation of the Elves backward looking stance - seeking to get back to the known, while Men are forward looking, ever seeking the unknown. The Elves do not seem atracted to new possibilities - which are percieved as changes to what they already know, what has already been, & hence a movement away from Ainlindale.

Quote:Is is not self contradictory: they can not distinguish good/bad jet planes, but are very well with good/bad rings? Ring's concept is similar to that of jet-fighter – both are meant for the domination of the world in respective way. And in case of rings elves are quite good at distinction –

Well, do the Elves consider the One Ring in its essential nature as 'evil' or is it merely teh use it is put to by Sauron that they object to: The One is designed to control & preserve - to control & coerce, as are the Elven Rings. What they realise by the End is that Their Rings & the One are 'wrong', because the desire behind them is wrong. There is every reason to believe that the Elves would have come up with their own equivalent of the One Ring, if they'd had the time & freedom to do it. This is the 'flirting with Sauron' - not the means (magic rings) but the mentality. The Elven Rings & the One are different only in power & in the intention behind their use - The Elven Rings are not 'morally good' & the One 'morally evil' - they are objects which are used by individuals, & it is the individual's intent which should be judged. In a way the Elven Rings are just as potentially corrupting as the One, because they offer the same temptation to power & control, domination & coercion of lesser wills. It could be argued that Galadriel is so acutley conscious of the danger of the One because she has lived so long with the temptation of Nenya..

Quote:It does imply that Elven Rings were bad thing to be done from the very beginning. Not the right thing to do. Yet Elves have been achieving things that are defined as good with their Rings (i.e. beauty of Lorien, etc). So, where is the alleged impotency of elves to pick up the bad theme and act good upon it?

This statement could be applied to the 'pride' of the Noldor - was that 'bad' from the very beginning? Didn't the 'sinful' Noldor achieve great beauty, wisdom & long stretches of peace & happiness in the FA? So, was their 'pride' ever 'good' as you say the Elven Rings were originally? The Elven Rings were another manifestation of the Noldorin desire for power & control - always 'bad' yes, but bringing about great good in various times & places.

04-07-2004, 02:29 AM	#105
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Quote:And both Noldor and Turin brought woe upon others besides themselves. Besides, only when Noldor reach the state of humiliation and self-denial Frodo was evincing, they are granted 'salvation' – i.e. passage to the West. And Frodo is too granted the healing there – a reward not often distributed among mortals. Would it so happen that Noldor (in the person of Earendil) haven't prayed for mercy, of what avail would have been all their valour and bravery? Yes, they brought woe on themselves & others - but that does not deny the good they did - as a direct result of their 'sins', not as a result of Eru changing or manipulating the result. We can't assume that they wouldn't have felt that it wasn't all a failure to be repented of. In this instance one could say the Valar, by their inaction, are just as much at fault, & share some of the responsibility for the sufferings of the inhabitants of ME - though they are not held accountable - don't we have examples here of sins of comission (the Noldor) & sins of Omission (the Valar). Dealing with Morgoth is the Valar's responsibility, not the Noldor's. And what of Manwe's (foolish? idiotic?) decision to release Melkor from Mandos? Who starts this tragedy? But Manwe is not held accountable in any way. Of what avail would have been their bravery? Well, Morgoth was held in check for a good part of the first Age - at the very least he wasn't allowed to have things all his own way, & become a threat to the whole of ME, including Valinor - which the Valar's inaction would have risked happening. Its entirely possible that the Valar's survival (at least as rulers of ME) is in large part entirely down to the Noldor in ME. Quote:Perception re: All things are possible, and either of us may be right, but I will rather hold on to textual evidence as voiced by Finrod (up: Forever beautiful and new). Finrod is expressing the Elvish perspective, not the human. He thinks like an elf. But constantly new things would not have to replace each other with such speed as you suggest. My feeling is that the Elves want to be surrounded constantly with the 'known', but in such a way that that 'known' is percieved with a feeling of 'newness'. Men on the other hand would seek the wholly new - things they had never experienced before. This is simply a manifestation of the Elves backward looking stance - seeking to get back to the known, while Men are forward looking, ever seeking the unknown. The Elves do not seem atracted to new possibilities - which are percieved as changes to what they already know, what has already been, & hence a movement away from Ainlindale. Quote:Is is not self contradictory: they can not distinguish good/bad jet planes, but are very well with good/bad rings? Ring's concept is similar to that of jet-fighter – both are meant for the domination of the world in respective way. And in case of rings elves are quite good at distinction – Well, do the Elves consider the One Ring in its essential nature as 'evil' or is it merely teh use it is put to by Sauron that they object to: The One is designed to control & preserve - to control & coerce, as are the Elven Rings. What they realise by the End is that Their Rings & the One are 'wrong', because the desire behind them is wrong. There is every reason to believe that the Elves would have come up with their own equivalent of the One Ring, if they'd had the time & freedom to do it. This is the 'flirting with Sauron' - not the means (magic rings) but the mentality. The Elven Rings & the One are different only in power & in the intention behind their use - The Elven Rings are not 'morally good' & the One 'morally evil' - they are objects which are used by individuals, & it is the individual's intent which should be judged. In a way the Elven Rings are just as potentially corrupting as the One, because they offer the same temptation to power & control, domination & coercion of lesser wills. It could be argued that Galadriel is so acutley conscious of the danger of the One because she has lived so long with the temptation of Nenya.. Quote:It does imply that Elven Rings were bad thing to be done from the very beginning. Not the right thing to do. Yet Elves have been achieving things that are defined as good with their Rings (i.e. beauty of Lorien, etc). So, where is the alleged impotency of elves to pick up the bad theme and act good upon it? This statement could be applied to the 'pride' of the Noldor - was that 'bad' from the very beginning? Didn't the 'sinful' Noldor achieve great beauty, wisdom & long stretches of peace & happiness in the FA? So, was their 'pride' ever 'good' as you say the Elven Rings were originally? The Elven Rings were another manifestation of the Noldorin desire for power & control - always 'bad' yes, but bringing about great good in various times & places. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."