[HerenIstarion]

Here we are speculating on the mind & motives of Illuvatar - which is perfectly valid if we view Illuvatar as a character Tolkien has invented - we may question, criticise, do a character analysis (or assasination ) if we choose. But if we see Illuvatar as in any way synonymous (even if only in Tolkien's mind) with God, then we simply can't enter into such speculation, simply because the Mind of God is too great

touché

On the other hand,

Well, it may be that the individual's perception of eternal things may be 'eternally new', but the things themselves, being eternal, cannot be in themselves eternally new - except in Eckhart's sense of being eternally created, rather than being created & constantly 'held in existence' - which strikes me is the difference between what Eru does (constantly creating all things) & what the Elves do by means of the Rings (creating an object once & then preserving or embalming it). From this I would draw the conclusion that the Elves' understanding of Eru's creativity is, while a genuine attempt at emulation (as all true sub creativity is), & is mistaken

On grounds given above (inability to understand Eru's mind), the conclusions you come to may be equally untrue as mine are, than. Though I agree that mine "aha" was a crooked argument, of course. Yet you, me, Eckhart and any other creature is equally unable to enter God's mind, therefore all of our reasoning may hit wild.

Yet, unless we are forced to abstain from any discussion whatsoever on that ground, and thus bringing us in discordance with God's will, somehow, for A) Having in mind the statement of being created in His likeness B) Having in mind that one of the mind's (pun warning - H-I always puns badly) main faculties is such of reasoning C) Abstaining from its employment is drawback on said likeness,

I draw a conclusion that we have to go on discussing such issues too

Well, I was not aware of the note you provide about elvish perception of Time. Thanks for the revelation, but I may argue that perception of time is not equal to perception of the Music, if we talk about ability to actualize given theme only in elven case. Therefore

A new Music, changed in any way from the original, would not appeal.

is speculation. It may be applicable to Valar and Maiar, or may be not, but with elves and men both being new theme in the Music, it strikes as discrepancy. Why should elves be so oppressed and depraved of ability to receive Eru's gifts? For anything coming from Eru is stated textually to be believed by Elves to be for the good of his Children (Estel), and elves are His Children. In case change comes from Eru, it is for their good and should not be rejected. And the answer is backed up textually too – because of Morgoth – who, tainting matter of Arda, made constant union of elven fëar and hroar even inside temporal boundaries of Arda Marred inharmonious and even impossible. And since the power goes both ways, and as fëa has its influence on hroa, so the latter does influence the former, the effect is such a dread of the future (and in case of Men Morgoth causes dread of death). It may be even speculated that Elves dread the future because their bodies fade (what with parting of fea and hroa regarded unnatural and undesirable). Barring of which process is the reason for such a preservation and freezing of time as done in places of elven rings (T.A), and Valinor in later times. (cf 'we must leave ME for Valinor or else we fade'). But there is no evidence that once harm done by Morgoth is healed (Arda Remade), elves must nevertheless dread the change.

Indeed, the change is not their main function (such being the remembrance), but dread they exhibit is not to be there in Arda Remade. Therefore, the change in the Music if produced by Eru should appeal.

Of course, as Finrod says, they hold to estel & believe that Eru will cause Arda re made to be the ultimate state of perfection, but they cannot concieve it

Than nobody can, for the same reason of Eru's minds inscrutability. Even Men, who, as I have a feeling we are agreed upon, act unconsciously. Besides, Estel consists not in the belief of perfection of final product of Eru's, but in the belief of His love for his Children and any deed of His being for their ultimate good.

For Elves, the ideal of Arda re made would seem to be -everything remaining the same, but their perception of it being constantly renewed. For Men I don't think that would suffice. They would require genuinely new things to be possible, genuiine change & the possibility of new sub creation. So Elves would seek newness of perception, Men newness of that percieved.

In case of the perception, how would one tell whether the thing perceived is the old thing perceived as new but nevertheless unchanged, or thing indeed changed and new and therefore so perceived?

If Elves or Maiar were to choose to manifest Melkor's theme, go over to his side, they would not only be choosing to actualise his 'prototypes', build the things he has 'drawn up the blueprints for', they would also be choosing to suppport his desires & bring about his goals - because they cannot think beyond the themes, & have to choose one or the other. Men can take something which Melkor intended for domination & destruction - say a jet engine, & choose whether they will build a warplane or a cargo plane, or a rescue aircraft. Melkor's intent in producing the 'design' would have been to build the warplane, if Elves or Maiar had chosen to build a plane it would inevitably have been a warplane, because they can only choose to manifest his theme or not. But Men can take the idea of the plane & choose to turn it to either good or evil.

Well then, if I understood correctly, you state that:

A) Valar and Elves know some themes to be good and some to be bad. Their freedom is expressed in choosing bad or good theme, and than act upon it. Whatever they do once they choose the theme, is defined to be good or bad according to the theme chosen.
B) Men may choose any theme of the Music (good or bad uniformly) and than act upon them in a good or bad way. So their freedom is of the other kind whatsoever.

Now my argument is that: Should groups and categories be introduced, it is incorrect to place Valar and Elves in one group and Men in another. It would be rather more logical to make groups as follows – group 1 Valar and group 2 Elves and Men, on the ground of difference of status. What is the case for Valar in choosing the themes may be speculated upon (I hold it is the same way as with elves and men, keystone being possible repentance of Sauron), but possibilities there for elves and men are discussed in following entries:

A) Good and Evil are stated to be the same for everybody. If we come to define what Evil is, I presume we will agree that uttermost end of it is Pride – i.e. replacement of priorities – putting forward of created self to take place of its Creator. Cruelty, domination and destruction are consequences. Any material object used for evil ends is ultimately but still merely medium for pride. Medium of the thing can not be at the same time the thing contained, so warplane can not be pride [=evil] in itself. I.e. warplane or any material object probably could not have been sung of in the Music, and if it nevertheless was, the dominant in the theme of warplane (sword, torture chamber, bomb etc) should have been pride.

B) Good and Evil are stated to be the same for everybody, again. So, any elf or man becoming proud in an evil way, (there are good ways to be proud, but that's another issue) are 1. Choosing Morgoth's theme 2. Performing act of choice. But Man, can not choose to be proud (cruel, dominant, destructive) and yet make any good end of it. Eru bringing good out of evil does so in mixing up results of actions of those who chose to be evil, but evil doers in themselves were planning quite other results (c.f. Melkor vs Ulmo and Manwe and snow and rain – freeze and heat were not invented with producing of beauty of snow and fertility of rain in mind)


C) With the B clause in mind, the way of acting goodly/badly for elves and men is the same and expressed by choice.


Further support for clause A:

He chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying,
Sang in a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and shifting shape,
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps

That is excerpt from Finrod's singing contest with Sauron. Even in lesser expression of thing [probably] similar to Great Music, the concepts are handled rather than material objects (though these figure too, but as mediums – broken trap=freedom etc)

Or, to be back on jet engines, jet engine per se is neither good nor bad. The knowledge on behalf of its handler (be it man or elf) that its usage is damaging, and decisions and actions hence with regards of such a knowledge, that is which makes jet engine probable medium for evil.


PS I have asked Estelyn to separate the discussion down from post #67. Let us await her decision