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Old 02-23-2008, 12:08 PM   #83
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 982
Galin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Originally Posted by zxcvbn
Galin, it seems my discussion with you has reached a dead end. Regardless of how I reply, you seem to be repeating the same point over and over; that Jackson is guilty because he 'chose' to put 'fabricated' Elvish in the films. I once again reply that Jackson would not know that the Elvish was fabricated, and from his perspective(as well as most other fans') Salo's Elvish is the real thing.
He can read, of course. You appear to be defending Jackson for being ignorant enough to not even bother to check the books, or have someone do it for him. I'm not going to blame Salo for that either. And you are simplifying what I'm saying Jackson 'chose' to do -- see below.

And indeed, whether or not it matches what Tolkien had in mind in his last years, it has been constructed using the Professor's own texts as a basis(use of loan words, earlier drafts etc.). And as for maintainging the 'feel' of Middle-earth, it certainly sounds quite authentic, even if the exact words are somewhat different(something only a few people like Hostetter could make out).
If you disagree with Mr. Hostetter fine (as I said); but he is not talking about the sound or the exact words, but the type of language.

The 'taste' of Sindarin is well enough represented in my opinion -- but I have no great praise for anyone who decided to construct phrases like 'Sit down Legolas' and a pile of other similar Neo-language.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White
I understand your point and respect that it means something important to you and some others who share your love of the Professors Elvish . (and special bonus points to Bethberry for the best line of the month on the Elvish leaving the building). However, not meaning to be rude, but one is tempted to say "so what"? What does it matter to the construction, flow and success of LOTR as a film if the Elvish is used word for word, is changed slightly, or is invented out of whole cloth ? It really has no impact or effect on the film as a film.
That's a different discussion that I have not really entered into here. If you want to start a new thread on it I will be happy to read it and maybe contribute.

Why would a filmmaker want "unassailable accuracy and authenticity" by using what they find in the books if it does not help them in constructing the story as a film? That is one of their main priorities and helps to determine the success of a film. The idea of "unassailable accuracy" means little or nothing in determining the overall success of a film.
Nor would 'unassailable accuracy and authenticity' regarding the Elvish necessarily hurt the overall success of a film -- but as I have already stated, a measure of constructed Elvish in the film would not bother me. What Jackson did do goes beyond that however.

I am not trying to belittle your position. Just to clarify that your priorities are clearly not the priorities of the world of commercial filmmakers.
My priority would be to successfully adapt the spirit of the source material to film, and create a successful film too. That includes the languages, including the matter Mr. Hostetter speaks to regarding the tone and feel -- which does not mean Jackson needed to use only the Elvish found in the books.

The point was: if Jackson was so concerned with accuracy he could have easily achieved it by incorporating only the Elvish from the books. Ok he didn't, so, so much for 'accuracy' step one.

But I wouldn't be criticizing him today if all he did was add some constructed stuff of the same order as Tolkien's actual Elvish -- he went beyond adding fabricated Elvish, he added stuff of a different feel from the books and chose to largely discard Tolkien attested examples along the way. So, if one tries to paint Peter Jackson as the director in search of linguistic accuracy, because he hired an expert -- let's remember that at the same time he's largely tossing Tolkien's actual Elvish out the window.

Yes Jackson desired a measure and type of 'accuracy', once he decided that he was going to approach the languages his way that is.

Last edited by Galin; 02-23-2008 at 12:50 PM.
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