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Old 03-31-2010, 03:35 PM   #5
Pitchwife
Wight of the Old Forest
 
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Interesting topic, Hookbill, and fine discussion, everybody!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba View Post
So often in an adventure of this kind (evil tyrant seeks to destroy / take over world), the antagonist is killed by the hero. This is another way in which The Lord of the Rings differs itself from many others.
I'd have thought the typical fate of Evil Overlords was to be destroyed by their own secret super-weapon (or alternatively, to fall to their death in one of those bottomless shafts that seem to have been built into their abode/fortress/space station expressly for this purpose). If we take the Ring to be an externalization of (part of) Sauron himself, we see both versions combined in LotR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hookbill
Or His Dark Materials where god is killed
If I remember correctly, he more or less died of old age. Unless you mean Metatron the impostor - didn't he fall into some abyss too (with a little help from Asriel and Mrs Coulter)?

(OK, getting serious now)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hookbill
There seems to be a very personal angle to killing in the book, I've noticed. Those who the main characters kill are done so in close proximity. Gandalf's main point to Frodo is that he has not 'seen' Gollum. And when Frodo does, he has much more pity for him and spares his life. Whenever there is death in the story, they at least see the victim, it seems.
[...]
Is there something about seeing, or meeting someone that Tolkien hold important in these instances?
Good observation. I have the impression Tolkien held that for killing to be at all ethically justifiable, you had (among other things) to face the reality of the act. When you read his WWII letters to Christopher (who was serving in the RAF at the time), you gather that he considered anonymous killing by dropping a bomb from a plane on people you don't really see assignable to Mordor (which got its own Special Flying Corps in the book) and was deeply concerned about the possibility of his son being spiritually harmed by taking part in this kind of warfare, even though he was realist enough to see that it was necessary under the given conditions.
Anybody want to guess what he would have thought of nuclear weapons, which make it possible for a politician to unleash outright genocide by simply pushing a button? (Can't remember if there's anything about that in the Letters - if someone has them at hand and can post a quote, I'd be grateful.)

As for Sauron (or other Ainur) being killed - I think while they were incarnate (whether by their own choice or by increasing attachment to the matter of Arda), they could be 'killed' (in the sense of having their hröa destroyed) just like any other Incarnate. IIRC Morgoth's Ring says that Morgoth himself was 'executed' = 'killed' by the Valar at the end of the First Age, and something similar happened to Sauron at the hands of Elendil and Gil-galad.
Only that wasn't the end of them (but then again, neither is it for Men and Elves), and for Arda to be rid of Morgoth (if not of his marring) for good, his spirit had to be banished to the Void. But my feeling is that the more an Ainu had busied themselves with and grown attached to the matter of Arda as such, the less would their spirits be able to survive the separation from the hröa and still be able to do anything effective - which applies not only to Morgoth and Sauron, but also to Saruman (and is it coincidence in this context that the latter two were both Maiar of Aule the earth-smith?).
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