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Old 12-06-2001, 04:23 PM   #25
Mister Underhill
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Join Date: Sep 2000
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Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
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You’ve made several interesting points here, Maril, as usual, but I think I see a few places where I must (respectfully!) disagree. So, at the risk of beating a dead horse (a risk I’ve never shrunk from in the past), I’ll carry on…
Quote:
Character can only be judged by motive.
I, for one, can’t side with you on this. “The road to hell is paved with good intentions,” they say. One could justify any number of misdeeds according to your logic. Quality of judgment and some sort of moral yardstick must also be taken into account when evaluating character, IMO. In other words, upon what basis has the person in question formed the opinion that their motives and methods are ‘good’? For all his virtues, Denethor’s judgment was badly skewed. By what? His own pride and arrogance, I contend.
Quote:
Denethor's intentions were more noble than Pippin's (pebble in Moria) in this case, he honestly meant to glean information for the good of the realm.
Here again (IMO), you’ve made an unwarranted, albeit generous, assumption. There are several points worth considering here.

(1) As a descendant of Númenoreans who were nearly destroyed as a bloodline by the deception of Sauron, Denethor of all people should have been aware of the unavoidable dangers of confronting his Enemy. Like all successful politicians, Denethor knows the right thing to say in many situations, but whether he’s sincere or not is another matter. When he assumed office, he took the oath 'to hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return', yet we see that he had no intention of surrendering either rod or rule when the king did return. As I quoted earlier and Sharkey mentioned in his last post in this thread, Denethor quotes a seeming proverb about the folly of disdaining help and counsel at need, yet we see that he disdained both at his hour of greatest need. I would add to these two examples his words to Boromir. Despite what he had to say about 10,000 years, etc., he clearly perceived himself to be at least the equal – if not the better – of the greatest of the Númenorean kings if he thought he could take on Sauron single-handedly and defeat him. His motive may have been ‘good’ – defeat Sauron – but his judgment and his methods were, to say the least, questionable.

(2) I concede that the extraordinary events taking place in the world may have justified the extreme measure of using the Palantír – yet what were the circumstances under which he made use of it? He doesn’t appear to have consulted any trusted advisors. Indeed, he doesn’t even seem to have any trusted advisors, certainly none that dared to oppose his will (with the possible occasional exception of Faramir). Faramir states that the punishment for choosing “a course that proves ill for [the] city” is death. Here, the Hitler analogy rears its head again. Even if Denethor did have advisors, how many would dare oppose his opinions or decisions in such a climate? Denethor’s megolamania set the stage for his own downfall. Contrast him with Théoden, whose deception at least was the result of a nefarious scheme against him, and who ultimately redeemed himself and died with honor. Even while in the throes of his deception, Théoden still retained trusted advisors close to him, and had enough humility to allow himself to be shown the error of his ways – a humiliating but necessary subjection of his ego to the advice and counsel of others.

(3) Was it mere political ambition that led Denethor to conceal the source of his information? Denethor already had a secure grip on the highest office he could hope to attain. What political aims could he possibly further by having this dubious “edge” over his allies, none of whom had any immediate political designs on his position (and whose designs, if any, were in any case proper according to the traditions and history of Gondor)? Or was it more that Denethor could not bear the thought of submitting himself to the leadership of someone other than himself; in fact, could not bear having to rely on others for help and intelligence, or even having to ask the advice of someone who might contradict his opinion? IMO, it’s the latter.

Who would have thought we could get so much mileage out of a Denethor thread? Interesting posts, all!
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