[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I would not say I was defending Denethor, more that I was trying to view him without the weight of the story bearing down on his character.

I understand that; I said 'defense' not so much because you were actually defending him, but because in my point of view you were trying not to say things against him, which I think was what you were actually doing. But I have to admit that it's very difficult to look at him objectively and without his faults seeping through. It just so happened that his character was revealed to us at a bad time; he was experiencing the worst events in the entirety of his life, was expecting things much worse, and was expected to hold himself up amidst all this - the perfect recipe for a person to actually break down. Had he been introduced in a much earlier time, a period of relative peace, we would have seen more commendable traits in him.

Not really...remember his jealousy towards Thorongil?

Hush!

See? That's exactly what I mean.

In my mind I can't help but compare him to Theoden, and in doing so I realized that indeed too much wisdom and knowledge can be detrimental.

Theoden was out of commission during the time the beginnings of the war can be seen, thanks to Grima, and 'woke up' to see his kingdom in danger. Instinctively he fought his way to 'safety' with a few friends along the way. He listened to Gandalf's words fully and trusted him completely. He had (almost) no knowledge of the Ring, and so did not really know how it relates to him and to Rohan. Until the end he remained hopeful, with a bright perspective of life and death.

On the other hand, Denethor was well aware of the happenings despite not stepping out of Minas Tirith - whether he gathered information through emissaries or spies or the Palantir does not really matter. He was in constant debate with Gandalf (except for the sortie thing) and believed he knows more than what Gandalf thinks he does. He came into an indirectly close contact with the Ring through his son Faramir, and felt indignant when the Ring was not brought to his hands. He saw and found out too much than what is good for him through the Palantir, and was too much analytical of others and the goings-on. All these assumptions and foreknowledge led to his dark and dreary view of life.

This brings me to believe that it's better not to hear about the Ring at all.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm not sure I'd put it like that. I think a better way of phrasing it is that he would have preferred to have it in his own hands. His expressed desire is to have it locked away unused somewhere. He only planned to pull it out at the uttermost need (which I think shows that he did not understand it all that well because the uttermost need would probably be just a bit too late).

That makes me wonder why he was mad at Faramir at all for not getting it. Did Denethor think that the Ring would be the safest away from Sauron if it were in Gondor? Or did he really mean to use it, but said "I would hide it" so Gandalf would not know his real intention? Why did he want to have the Ring in his hands at all if he only thinks of hiding it, when there could be a whole lot of other hiding places?

(There goes me suspecting Denethor of lying. )