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jallanite · 10-16-2012, 07:39 PM

But that Sauron did not take the Ring to Númenor is never said by Tolkien. It is only said by d4rk3lf who cites some some supposed logic which only shows what d4rk3lf imagines and need not be what Tolkien or any others of his readers imagine.

Tolkien wrote:

There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; …

Tolkien does not write anything here about the whereabouts of the Great Ring during the period when Sauron was in Númenor, only that Sauron, hidden in Barad-dûr, there took up his Ring again and over some period of time devised for himself a new form. It is only imagining by a reader that fills in the gap, that perhaps Sauron takes up the Ring which he has carried to Barad-dûr in the form of a spirit or that perhaps Sauron takes up the Ring which has lain hidden in Barad-dûr.

In Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, letter 211, 14 Oct. 1958, Rhona Beare asked, “How could Ar-Pharazôn defeat Sauron when Sauron had the One Ring?” Tolkien writes a response indicating:

He (Sauron) naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret as long as they could. In any case, Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them. … )

Tolkien continues:

Though reduced to a ‘spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.

Tolkien might have more easily pointed out to Rhona Beare that Sauron is not said to have had the One Ring in his possession in Númenor and saved himself some writing. But, at least on 14 Oct. 1958, Tolkien thought not.

Had Tolkien ever thought so? Well, Tolkien’s original Númenor writing was done long before Tolkien had invented any such idea as the “One Ring”. It was only in writing The Lord of the Rings that there emerged the idea of the One Ring upon which Sauron’s power later depended. But after than point we first have Rhona Beare and himself in this letter, neither of which interprets the text as d4rk3lf does.

10-16-2012, 07:39 PM	#19
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	But that Sauron did not take the Ring to Númenor is never said by Tolkien. It is only said by d4rk3lf who cites some some supposed logic which only shows what d4rk3lf imagines and need not be what Tolkien or any others of his readers imagine. Tolkien wrote: There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; … Tolkien does not write anything here about the whereabouts of the Great Ring during the period when Sauron was in Númenor, only that Sauron, hidden in Barad-dûr, there took up his Ring again and over some period of time devised for himself a new form. It is only imagining by a reader that fills in the gap, that perhaps Sauron takes up the Ring which he has carried to Barad-dûr in the form of a spirit or that perhaps Sauron takes up the Ring which has lain hidden in Barad-dûr. In Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, letter 211, 14 Oct. 1958, Rhona Beare asked, “How could Ar-Pharazôn defeat Sauron when Sauron had the One Ring?” Tolkien writes a response indicating: He (Sauron) naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret as long as they could. In any case, Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them. … ) Tolkien continues: Though reduced to a ‘spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended. Tolkien might have more easily pointed out to Rhona Beare that Sauron is not said to have had the One Ring in his possession in Númenor and saved himself some writing. But, at least on 14 Oct. 1958, Tolkien thought not. Had Tolkien ever thought so? Well, Tolkien’s original Númenor writing was done long before Tolkien had invented any such idea as the “One Ring”. It was only in writing The Lord of the Rings that there emerged the idea of the One Ring upon which Sauron’s power later depended. But after than point we first have Rhona Beare and himself in this letter, neither of which interprets the text as d4rk3lf does.