[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Well, Ilúvatar didn't issue a Torah or some such to His Children. He gave laws (axani) to the Valar which they in turn taught to the Elves (and they in turn to the Númenoreans?), but the majority of Men in Middle-earth received no such instruction.

Right, which is the point I was making somewhere above when I reawakened this sleeping dragon.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

The only way their ethical standards could be derived from Ilúvatar (and not just cultural tradition, like e.g. the warrior ethic of the Rohirrim) would be if he somehow 'programmed' it into them when he made them - which is I think imaginable and would more or less boil down to what we call individual conscience.

The Rohirrim at least were aware of Oromë the Vala, named Béma by them. However, what special significance he might have had to them isn't clear.
As for the 'programming' aspect, I agree with the idea. Not long ago I heard a news story which said that all of us apparently had a "God-gene", something that impelled us to seek understanding of our purpose and predisposed us toward a belief in a Higher Power.
Also, I think there are instances in the books, like Sam's belief that he had 'something to do' before the end of Frodo's quest, or Aragorn's 'heart' telling him to follow the Uruk-hai on an apparently useless pursuit, that speak of inner promptings from an Outside source. Just my opinion, of course.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Yes, the Númenóreans are cum grano salis the Jews of Middle-earth in this respect (also in their language, which has a strong Semitic flavour in my ear). But as you noted yourself earlier, the Elvish 'proxy' worship was acceptable to him as well, and we don't see him getting angry with anybody because they did not worship him in any ritual way. I think what really did the Númenóreans in was turning from non-worship to active Morgoth-idolatry - so it would seem Eru was OK with people not worshipping him as long as they worshipped no false gods in his stead.

If either form of worship was all right though, I still have to wonder why open ceremony as displayed on the Meneltarma was not resumed by the Kingdoms in Exile. Painful memories? Or maybe just a general falling away from the ways of their forebears?

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Pitch got to this before me. Both the Wiki article and Armstrong's discussion explain how the right behaviour matters more than the belief and argue that this is more predominant in Judaism and Islam.

I think that goes back to what Pitch said, about Ilúvatar speaking to the heart. Otherwise, "right" behaviour cannot help being subjective.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

As to what sets up the standard, perhaps that would be the issue of suffering (as it is in Buddhism). When the Numenoreans turned to worshipping Melkor, how did that change their society and behaviour to each other?

All "suffer" in different ways, though. Again, doesn't that make standards of right and wrong subjective, if that's where they come from?

As for the Númenóreans, of course their society deteriorated very quickly once they started the Melkor-worship. They fought and killed one another. None of that induced them as a whole to change, though. Most of them became more and more debased and anti-West as things grew worse around them.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Note to Inzil: I cannot recall when I first read The Spiral Staircase, so I cannot remember if it influenced my earlier post about Frodo, but there could well be a consistency in my own journey that's coming out.

This was a while back, wasn't it? I've had a journey of my own which led to a significant event about 6 weeks ago, so my own perspective may a bit different now, but I think it's fundamentally the same.