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Old 10-11-2007, 12:41 AM   #125
Raynor
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Originally Posted by obloquy
The Nazgul stand or fall with Sauron, naturally. But Sauron does not stand or fall with them, so this relationship is not equivalent to Sauron's relationship with the Ring. Come on, you shouldn't have needed me to explain that to you.
Your initial argument was:
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This suggests a much tighter--and indeed reliant--relationship between Sauron and his Ring than he would have allowed between himself and a more or less expendable servant, unless that servant was invincible to the same degree that the Ring was.
If the WK would fall only if Sauron would, it pretty much means that the WK would fall only if the Ring is destroyed (other alternatives of destroying Sauron are not explored much in the book). Therefore, as long as the Ring endures, so does the WK.
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He was still capable of modifying his appearance until the drowning of Numenor.
Being capable of modifying appearance is completely different from being discarnate at the time of making the ring.
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Where are they described as such?
Find it yourself.
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Originally Posted by Of the enemies, Valaquenta, Silmarillion
For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.
Nothing about the maiar that came into Melkor's service mentions them being any lower than the rest. Balrogs are not mentioned as lesser spirit, quite the contrary can be surmised from their mentioning in this passage. All throughout the work, the balrogs are given prime status among his servants, which justifies at least their equal status with any other fallen maia.
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And yet he was still not called one of the greatest Eldar. Are you suggesting that after his reincarnation and return he had surpassed all others?
Greatest of the Eldar is a rather unqualified, general label - as you yourself have mentioned.
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Originally Posted by obloquy View Post
Tolkien uses the same unqualified "greatest" to describe Galadriel as he does to describe Sauron (greatest of Melkor's servants).
Nowhere is it equated with status close or equal to that of lesser maiar.
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