[Findegil]

I will give him a LOT of credit - this version he has created is very very near to ideal

Thank you for the flowers, but let me first see, what Aiwendil has to say, before I claim that I can still make a decent compromise-draft.
Reading further howmany of your suggestions have not yet found my working copy, I have some doubts about my talent as a text keeper. For execuse I can only bring forward that the chapter is still work in progress and that before prepare a text for an update in the forum, I check all the discussion. But still it is doubtfull if I would have catched them all. In short I am glad you made that review and reminded me!

CE-EX-01.5: I like that addition, even so it is not clear what spirits are meant (as it shuold not be for sure) we have later examples as you mention.

CE-EX-03.2 & CE-EX-03.3: I agree to these addition as well. Even so we might suspect that it is more legendary than a real description of Varda at work. (I personanly find it very sad, that Christopher Tolkien did cut out the actual smithing of the sun-ship by Aulë in LT.)

CE-EX-03.5: Good catch! How did that got lost? May be at one point we thought of including Telimektar, who was to become that configuration of stars, but I can't remember.

CE-EX-26: It is good to have your input in all these linguistical questions! Utúlieltë it will be and I corrected as well the answer tu utúlier.

CE-EX-27: The idea behind the change was that none of the Valar could have know that name, since up to that time Oromë had it given to the Quendi when he was alone with them. But in the end the communication of the Valar might be always in more than level (verbal and mental) and therefore it might be obvious to the other Valar and Maiar what he meant. Or we might asume your explanation of transfered texts.

CE-SL-11.5c: I agree to your change. But it will be CE-SL-11.5d then.

CE-EX-28.2: I do not see how you landed at Tulcal. In the original we have Qenya Tambe, Ilsa, Latunken, Kanu, Anga, Laure => Tilkal. Now this would in Quenya change to Urus, Tyelpë, Latúcen, Canu, Anga, Culu => Uilcac
Even if we change the order (wish I am hesistant about) we have only one L and thus can't build Tulcal.

CE-EX-28.4: I can't help much in this questions, but with yoked/joined as on element the other element must mean some thing like everlasting.

Sad as it is, it seems to me that if we do not find beter solution for the lingustical riddels, we have to eliminat all 3 names.

CE-EX-35.1: I have nothing to add to Falman => Falmon. But to Valimo => Vaiyamo: Vaiya we considered still valid when we discussed Ambarcanta. There we have still the concept of Vaiya being more like water below and more like air above the earth. And we are told that the more sea-like part is called Ekkaia. But in the next sentence we are told: 'In Vaiya below the Earth dwells Ulmo.' Thus Vaiyamo seems fully justified.


CE-EX-35.1: I agree to includ this passage, but I think it has to come a bit earlier:

CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth CE-EX-36.2b{, and all that region was much broken}.<GA In these regions, therefore, were fought the first battles of the Powers of the West and the North, and all this land was much broken, and it took then that shape which it had until the coming of {Fionwe}[Eönwë]. For the Great Sea broke in upon the coasts and made a deep gulf to the southward, and many lesser bays were made between the Great Gulf and Helcaraxë far in the North, where Middle-earth and Aman came nigh together. Of these bays the Bay of Balar was the chief; and into it the mighty river Sirion flowed down from the new-raised highlands northwards: Dorthonion and the mountains about Hithlum. At first these lands upon either side of Sirion were ruinous and desolate because of the War of the Powers, but soon growth began there, while most of Middle earth slept in the Sleep of Yavanna, because the Valar of the Blessed Realm had set foot there; and there were young woods under the bright stars. These Melian the Maia fostered; and she dwelt most in the glades of Nan Elmoth beside the River {Celon}[Limhir]. There also dwelt her nightingales.> But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen]; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into ...

CE-EX-46: Well it was a trial. We can leave it out, which is the saver way.

CE-EX-46.5: I missed not only that passage but as well the sentence before it: 'There he lay upon his face before the feet of Manwe, and he sued for pardon and freedom, recalling his kinship with Manwe.' Thus as a fact that I missed in AAm which is the last version before MT VI we have Melkor sue for pardon twice: first at the council after the War of Powers and a second time after his 3 ages of imprisonment. This does render my first attemp, that I mentioned at the begining of my last post possible. I will give it below as far as necessary to show its differences and discuss its pros and cons.
As for this version this is a good addition where ArcusCalion put it.

CE-EX-39.1: Not explicitly contradicted but, ArcusCalion is right we have to change this:

CE-EX-39f <MT; VI at the council> was this. For three ages during the displeasure of the {Gods}[Valar] should {Melko}[Melkor] be chained in a vault of Mandos by that chain {Angaino}[Angainor], CE-EX-39.1<LQ ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon >and thereafter {should}might he fare into the light of the Two Trees, but only so that he might for {four ages}[a time] yet dwell CE-EX-39.2{as a servant in the house of Tulkas, and obey him}<AAm for a while in a humble house in Valmar under vigilance> in requital of his ancient malice. "Thus," said Manwë, "and yet but hardly, mayst thou win favour again sufficient that the {Gods}[Valar] suffer thee to abide thereafter in an house of thine own and to have some slight estate among them as befitteth a Vala and a lord of the Ainur."

CE-EX-48 - CE-EX-51.1: Agreed.

CE-EX-52.5: Good find! I agree to its inclusion.

CE-EX-58.3 & CE-EX-67: I agree that with Q&E given in volume 3 in full, this both this passages should be removed here.

Aiwendil, I have read your post as well, even so you posted it while I worked on my again overlong posting. You might be right and I rejected that way out anyway. But as mentioned in the discussion of CE-EX-46.5 the dilemma was anyhow not there because AAm has Melkor sue for pardon twice and the first time during the council we discuss here, which I missed. So I give here as an alternative the view changes that were different in that draft I had made first:

CE-EX-39g<LT Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the {Gods}[Valar] were exceeding wroth{ at the subtlety and fawning insolence of his words}, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear{ from Melko's words} that {he}[Melkor] was awake and wary{ in this matter, and it could most plainly be seen which of the Gods he was most in fear of and desired least to see standing in his halls} - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how {these twain}we may come upon him CE-EX-38.2b{ unawares and how fear may perchance drive him into betterment of ways}." To this Manwë assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig {Melko}[Melkor] from his stronghold CE-EX-38.3{, whereas that deceit must be very cunningly woven that would ensnare the master of guile. "Only by his pride is Melko assailable," quoth Manwe, }" or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwë sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.>
CE-EX-38.4b<LT{Then}Therefore the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, CE-EX-38.5c{and placed the chain Angaino about the neck and arms of Tulkas, and even he might scarce support its great weight alone;} and {now}then they {follow Manwë and his}followed Manwë’s herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof.> CE-EX-38.51<AAm Then, since he was but one against many, Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him>CE-EX-38.52<LT and {thereupon }Tulkas smote {Melko}[Melkor] full in his teeth with his fist of iron, and he {and Aulë }grappled with him, and straight he was wrapped thirty times in the fathoms of {Angaino}[Angainor].
Then said Orome: "Would that he might be slain" – and it would have been well indeed, but the {great Gods}[Valar] may not yet be slain. Now {is}was {Melko}[Melkor] held in dire bondage and beaten to his knees CE-EX-38.53 , and he {is}was constrained to command all his vassalage that they molest not the Valar -- and indeed the most of these, affrighted at the binding of their lord, fled away to the darkest places.
Tulkas indeed dragged {Melko}[Melkor] out before the gates, and there Aulë set upon each wrist one of the Vorotemnar and upon each ankle twain of the Ilterendi, and tilkal went red at the touch of {Melko}[Melkor] CE-EX-38.54, and those bands have never since been loosened from his hands and feet. Then the chain {is}was smithied to each of these and {Melko}[Melkor] CE-EX-38.55{borne}[led] thus helpless away.>
CE-EX-38.91b<LQ {Nonetheless}But the CE-SL-17{fortress}fortresses of Melkor at Utumno and Angband had many mighty vaults and caverns …
…
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the {Gods}[Valar], yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have CE-SL-15bunchained {Melko}[Melkor] and fought him then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness. CE-EX-46.5b<AAm{There he lay upon his face}[Melkor kneeled] before the feet of Manwë, and he sued for pardon and freedom, recalling his kinship with Manwë. But{ his prayer was denied, and} it is said that in that hour the Valar would fain have put him to death. But death none can deal to any of the race of the Valar, neither can any, save Eru only, remove them from Eä, the World that is, be they willing or unwilling.>
CE-EX-38.9b<LT In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the {Gods}[Valar] would at his bidding indeed have received {Melko}[Melkor] into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.> {and his}But the doom CE-EX-39f <MT; VI at the council> was this. For three ages during the displeasure of the {Gods}[Valar] should {Melko}[Melkor] be chained in a vault of Mandos by that chain {Angaino}[Angainor], CE-EX-39.1<LQ ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon >and thereafter {should}might he fare into the light of the Two Trees, but only so that he might for {four ages}[a time] yet dwell CE-EX-39.2{as a servant in the house of Tulkas, and obey him}<AAm for a while in a humble house in Valmar under vigilance> in requital of his ancient malice. "Thus," said Manwë, "and yet but hardly, mayst thou win favour again sufficient that the {Gods}[Valar] suffer thee to abide thereafter in an house of thine own and to have some slight estate among them as befitteth a Vala and a lord of the Ainur."
…

The pro of this version is that the defeat of Melkor by Tulkas is some time gone by before he meets Manwë at the council. But the con is that it forces us to make changes in the story line of MT VI. In the end we might even let Melkor sue for pardon thrice.

Respectfully,
Findegil