Quote:
Originally Posted by cellurdur
Luthien remained an Elf. Humans cannot use the kind of magic Luthien throws around. She alone became a mortal elf. Luthien would not suddenly start getting sick, be unable to walk on snow, lose her eyesight etc because she was mortal. The only change was inwhat her fea would do after death.
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What magic did Luthien "throw around" after returning from Mandos? They returned to Doriath, said good bye, and went to Ossiriand. Thereafter about all said is that she had the Silmaril until she and Beren died.
About all I can think of is the statement that she "healed the winter of Thingol with the touch of her hand." But it's only speculation she "used magic" (or even elvish art) to do so. The winter is described as "Then a winter, as it were the hoar age of mortal Men, fell upon Thingol." That could mean little more than that Thingol was so distraught by the death of Luthien that he began to waste away, grow haggard and agunt, unable to walk, losing his vigor, on his way to dieing himself (from grief, perhaps). And, if so, the touch of her hand was just that - a simple act of love and compassion that showed Thingol his daughter was alive and with him again - and that healed his winter.
On what do you base your claims about her not getting sick, or not walking on snow, or eyesight or etc after her return?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cellurdur
No there was no general rule. It had not been decided what to do with the Half-elven until Manwe made his ruling.
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My apologies, I was not clear. I was describing (generalizing) what Tolkien seemed to have decided in those cases where he "did" record the fates of the Eruhini - not a rule that the Valar had established which, as you point out, was only formalized by Manwe in regards to the Earendil matter.
And I did specify that this generalization dealt with "until Manwe made his ruling"
So, in the pre-Ruling period I said of the half-elven "the matter was uncertain" and you said "It had not been decided". I think we are in agreement on that point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cellurdur
Mandos is not going to let such an important decision go without discussing it with Manwe.
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Well, that is a speculation. Maybe true, but each Vala had his area and mission and if Ulmo (in the case of Tuor) can "seem to gainsay his bretheren, the Lords of the West" (including Manwe), it's at least a possibility that Mandos might consider the matter in his hands for those who were already in his halls.
In any event, I said "maybe". I.e. this is just a speculation since we really don't know squat about the fates of Elured and Elurin after they were abandoned in the forest. All we know is that "about their fates, no tale tells".
So, "
maybe" Mandos DID discuss it with Manwe and Manwe made a decision. But, because it was "in-the-family", so to speak (i.e. a matter really only known about by the Valar) there was no need to make the decision formal.
When Earendil & Elwing showed up, however, the Eldar of Valinor knew they were there and, knowing (also) the Ban that the Valar had put in place which had been broken, the Valar pretty much had to formalize what they were going to do.
They no longer had the option to keep it quiet (as in the cases of Elwing's brothers). That's what I meant by having their hands forced.