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Old 06-24-2018, 07:25 PM   #24
Balfrog
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 87
Balfrog has just left Hobbiton.
Huinesoron

Whatever 'amount' Tolkien originally drafted might, or indeed might not have, had bearing on his final decision. We have made some progress though. If we can conclude he was aware of the resulting connotations at the time of change and declined to alter the amount through the long years before publishing, then the primary reason for retention would have been a desire to keep the work “fundamentally ... Catholic” in line with the 'lembas letter'. That seems to have been a surpassing desire - beyond any appealing math. However this does not constitute allegory!

Looking back at the phrase 'fundamentally religious and Catholic' from Letter #142 – I'm wondering why he didn't just say 'fundamentally Christian'. Why the emphasis on Catholicism? Since Catholicism arose in Jesus's time and the sacrament of bread is also part of the Catholic ritual – I'm wondering whether Tolkien's focus on inserting symbolism was more geared towards the New Testament. The 30 silver pennies would certainly then be aligned with lembas and the other allusions Ms. Seth provided in our essay of interest – as she does focus on the 'Gospels' – especially one might note the essay title.

The 'lembas letter' all the more drives the weighting towards New Testament stuff rather than the 'Gollum and the Ox' of the Old Testament – a small but significant matter in assessing the evidence of precedence. You are wrong about me not wishing to consider other potential Christian allusions. I am happy to do so if you open up another thread (as I asked Morthoron to do – and which he has so far not done).

Yes as you quite rightly point out the lembas stuff is ludicrous in comparison to the 30 silver pennies. All the more power to Ms. Seth's article. I think though we have reached a reasonable position - that being Tolkien would have been very much aware of 30 silver pieces being one of of the most fundamental aspects of the Christian story. Thus 30 silver pennies was a likely symbolic inclusion.

I wish I could post more regularly (maybe more so after retirement) – but my current circumstances prevent me from doing so. I did commit to Ms. Seth that I would review her work, discuss her essays and make some of the Tolkien community aware of them. I struggle to even do that. But 'puppet' or not – that is no excuse for hostility and ill will.


Morthoron

Another cracking post! More than half of it dedicated to spouting off about inconsequential stuff instead of focusing on that which matters. Full of the usual drivel.

How I love to laugh at your silly attempts to find out wherether I have a pseudonym, aliases, etc.
As if anyone really cares – and as if it really makes any difference in discussing Tolkien.



As usual you evaded my continually asked questions for the nth time. So here we go again - in bold:

“Was Tolkien learned enough to understand 30 silver coins was strongly associated to the Christian story?"

Just give me an answer: Yes or No?"

And to add to that:

“Are pennies coins?" Yes or No?

Bottom-line: you do not know Tolkien well enough to declare "pennies is not the medium for the allusion."

Most normal people instantly know that pennies can be equated to 'coins' and that 'pieces in the Gospels were 'coins'.
Most people know that 'pennies' is a heck of a good match with 'pieces'. Far better than notes, trading beads, iou's etc.
Thus most normal people know that 30 silver pennies equivalence well with 30 silver pieces.

Those who are true Tolkien scholars equally know that “pennies” is approriate for Shire coinage and that an exact word-for-word biblical match would have been unlikely since JRRT stripped out overt religious references. But it is symbolism that's of utter importance – however for some strange reason you unable to bring yourself to admit that 30 silver pennies could be symbolic.

“For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.” Letter #142

You can twist and turn and writhe all you like – but 30 silver pennies is close enough to symbolically represent 30 pieces of silver” in my eyes and I suspect – most others.


Please keep the rubbishy character defamations spewing – because I look forward to every reply.
I take it mostly as a joke – as I never know which parts of your posts are serious!
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