[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Thirty silver coins cannot be dissected into three points, my dear, that is as fallacious as it is inane. Thirty silver pieces is the point: not thirty, and coins and silver. If it were thirty of any other item, or if it were brass and not silver, your silly Seth wouldn't be typing out her click bait (and you then would not be acting as her senseless cipher).

This is the key point, I think. While thirty pieces of silver are certainly suggestive, by themselves they are only a single point. Balin's folk came to Moria thirty years before the Fellowship arrived, looking (in part) for true-silver, and they ended up dying (just like Judas!), but because 'thirty' and 'silver' aren't connected to coins, we don't draw that connection. It's only because Butterbur is out the significant thirty pieces of silver that we look for anything else... and to be honest, it isn't there.

Yes, it is possible, as Ms. Seth has done, to pick out points of vague congruence between the events of Michaelmas Day and the Gospels. But... well, here's the list, for those who have difficulty reading the frankly bizarre format of her article:

a) 'Thirty pieces of silver', in connection with a theme of betrayal.
b) "The drink in their drinking-bowls seemed to be clear cold water, yet it went to their hearts like wine" - connected to the miracle of water into wine.
c) Bombadil's opening of the barrow is connected with Jesus' resurrection of Lazarus, including a link between the sound of stones falling, and Jesus rolling away a stone.
d) A weird confluence of two points:

Originally Posted by Ms. Seth

Jesus on numerous occasions exorcising unclean spirits, echoed by the departure of a spirit which appears to have cohabited with Merry:

“ ‘… Ah! the spear in my heart! … What am I saying? …’ ”.
– The Fellowship of the Ring, Fog on the Barrow-downs

The Roman soldiers’ spear to check for Jesus’ death while nailed to the Cross is also reputed to have penetrated through to this vital organ.

e) Tom mentions the words 'out of deep water', evoking baptism.
f) Tom brings Goldberry lilies; images of the Annunciation often include lilies (not always held by Michael, though Ms. Seth doesn't note this).
g) Two cocks crowing, not on Michaelmas, connecting with a third one in RotK to evoke Peter's rejection of Jesus.
h) The words 'the crownless again shall be king' evoking Christ's resurrection.

Of these, I feel b, d, e, g, and h can pretty much be rejected out of hand. The idea of 'pure drink which acts like heady wine' sounds more like Norse mythology than Christian; Bombadil doesn't even exorcise Merry, and spears are a ridiculously common weapon to be calling out as a Biblical parallel; baptism has never been about being lost in the water; the cock-crows don't take place on the relevant day, and the RotK one has no connection to Denethor's actions (and at any rate symbolises the dawn of a new day and the breaking of the Dark); and Jesus was both (in Catholic theology) still King while dead, and literally wearing a crown when he died.

The 'thirty silver pennies' has been debated extensively. The breaking of the barrow could be Gospel-inspired - I would look more at Jairus' daughter, who was specifically raised as if from sleep - though the stone connection is weak (it's a barrow, of course there's stone). The lilies... yeah, lilies are a symbol of Mary. But they're also the only common flower that grows in the water, and Goldberry the River-Daughter predates LotR; you don't have to search for symbolism when there's a very obvious logical reason for its presence.

The real point is that any effort to analyse Ms. Seth's list is pointless, because it is mind-numbingly easy to take two incredibly detailed books - LotR and the Bible - and find points of congruence between parts of them. You could 'prove' that Gollum has deep and meaningful connections to King Solomon:

a) He has two personalities and is accused of child-murder, linking straight to the famous story about cutting babies in half
b) He is linked to a friendship as close as brotherhood (Frodo and Sam), like Solomon is linked to that of David and Jonathan (indeed, we could cast Smeagol as Frodo's symbolic 'child', as Solomon is David's)
c) He 'pays court' to a powerful female figure (Shelob), like Solomon does the Queen of Sheba (and look how close those two names are!)
d) He is connected to a betrayal in an aquatic context (his murder of Deagol), which Solomon is also (his mother is Bathsheba, who David desired after seeing her bathing)
e) He is an excellent guide (when he wants to be), so could be said to be 'wise' - and the Wisdom of Solomon is legendary.
f) His actions lead to his companions being separated (when Frodo is taken prisoner), just as Solomon's ultimately led to the breaking of the Kingdom of Israel.

And that's all off the top of my head, using an example I came up with without even thinking about it! Are we to suppose that Tolkien used Gollum as a proxy for Solomon, then? Not in the least!

Yes, J.R.R. Tolkien was a fervent Catholic, who grew up in a culture and context saturated with religious imagery, and yes, some of that imagery makes its way into his work. The calling forth of the supposedly-dead; treachery which nearly brings about ruin; hope which returns when all hope seems lost; lilies for innocence and purity; and yes, maybe even thirty pieces of silver. But to claim that that imagery is part of a concerted effort to tell a deeply Biblical narrative is to fall victim to the wildest pareidolia.

hS