[The Saucepan Man]

Some thoughts on previous posts and some thoughts of my own ...

Originally Posted by davem

So it seems Tolkien was toying with the idea that it was not some ‘innate’ power or aspect of the Otherworld that caused the slowing or ceasing of time but the will of Galadriel herself - Time moves differently (if it moves at all) because she commands it to. This opens up many new areas of speculation - why, for instance, did Tolkien reject the idea - would it have proved too complex or confsing for readers, or would it have made Galadriel too powerful, too dictatorial - too ‘unnatural’?

Interesting that Tolkien was originally toying with the idea of time not passing at all while the Fellowship remained in Lothlorien. Clearly, he retained the idea of "timelessness" which, as you say, emphasises the dreamlike atmosphere of the place. He does make the point that the Fellowship themselves were unclear as to how long they had remained in the realm:

Their hearts were heavy; for it was a fair place, and it had become like home to them, though they could not count the days and nights they had passed there.

I suspect that Tolkien ultimately concluded that references such as this, combined with Frodo's reaction to the place and the very "feel" of it portrayed by the descriptive passages, were sufficient to convey its "timelessness" and dreamlike quality. He did not have to go that step further and have no time pass there at all. And, if no time passed outside for those that passed time within the realm, that would have given rise to a "logical" conundrum (although that is, perhaps, an inappropriate word to use when talking of a magical land). At what point in time in the "outside" world would Elves who dwelt in the land emerge from it? The time at which they first entered? What if they were born there? Or could they leave at a point in time of their choosing? Surely that would effectively give them the gift of time travel. Perhaps Tolkien never developed the idea sufficiently to consider these issues, but they surely would have arisen had he stuck with it.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Exactly, and Boromir is the only one who can bring himself to leaving the company. He's set, he's going to Minas Tirith, whether no one follows him or not. That was Aragorn's original plan, then we see he too, can't just abandon Frodo. Boromir just was "in" because their paths followed the same road, he wasn't in because he cared for Frodo.

I do wonder whether Boromir would really have left Frodo in the event that the Company had been faced at this point with the decision of going east or west. Clearly, this is his stated position:

"I shall go to Minas Tirith, alone if need be, for that is my duty," said Boromir;

But then he lapses into silence …

... sitting with his eyes fixed on Frodo, as if he was trying to read the Halfling's thoughts.

Clearly, there is more going on within Boromir's mind than he lets (or wants to let) on. When he speaks again, he does so softly, as if he is debating with himself. And that is precisely what he is doing. He knows that his duty is to return to Minas Tirith, but he is getting to the stage where he cannot bring himself to do so without the Ringbearer - or the Ring. And he almost gives himself away with his unguarded words which follow. Certainly, he arouses Frodo's suspicions:

Frodo caught something new and strange in Boromir's glance, and he looked hard at him. Plainly, Boromir's thought was different from his final words. It would be folly to throw away: what? The Ring of Power?

It is interesting that Aragorn appears to be oblivious to this exchange but rather seems to be "deep in his own thought", given that he has previously made pointed remarks to Boromir on two occasions concerning the peril of Lothlorien to those who bring evil with them into the realm.

In any event, it seems to me from this passage that, whatever Boromir may have said openly, it was unlikely now that he would follow a different course to the Ringbearer - unless he bore the Ring himself.

Another point occurs to me. We see in this passage that Frodo sees something "new and strange" in Boromir. Is this because it is only now that the desire for the Ring has fully awoken within Boromir? Certainly, at the Council of Elrond, he was all for bringing it to Minas Tirith and using it against Sauron, but it is unlikely that he had any intention at that stage to forcibly impose his will in this regard. Is Lothlorien a "turning point" for Boromir? And, if so, is this connected with Galadriel's test, which forced him to confront his heart’s desire? Was this the "peril" which lay in Lothlorien for Boromir - to have his desire awoken? If so, it might suggest that, had he not entered the realm, his desire would have remained latent, or at least not come to the fore so quickly. Indeed, if we suppose that he would have succumbed to the lure of the Ring eventually, perhaps this was Galadriel's purpose in confronting him with his desire. Since she could see what was in his heart, perhaps she considered it better to "flush it out" early, rather than risk having it surface at a later stage, in Minas Tirith perhaps, when Boromir would have been surrounded by men loyal to him.

And now onto Celeborn. After my character assassination ( ) in the discussion of the previous Chapter, I have to admit that he is portrayed in a much better light here. He provides the Fellowship with boats (a very important gift, as others have noted) and provides useful counsel concerning the Fellowship's route. I also noticed that, when he tells the Fellowship that all shall be prepared for them at the haven, he says that this is to be accomplished by "my people", not "our people". Is this simply a reference to the fact that the Elves of Lorien are closer in kindred to him than to Galadriel, or does it suggest that, for all her power and wisdom, he remains Lord of the realm?

It is, however, Galadriel, who bestows the individual gifts on the Fellowship, despite her having previously described her husband as "a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings".

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I think we can assume that the gifts are from both of them, so that it doesn’t matter much – or does it?

Well, I think that it does. The boats which Celeborn gives the Fellowship are important, but they are hardly beyond the power of kings. Whereas the gifts which Galadriel gives are, since (specifically with reference to the gifts which she gives to Aragorn, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli) they are personal to her. The Elfstone she passed to her daughter, who in turn passed it to her daughter, Arwen. The phial contains the waters of her fountain. Sam's box contains earth from her garden. And Gimli, of course, is given three locks of her hair. It is important, I think that each of these gifts is identified closely with her for she sustains and embodies the fading magic and beauty of Lothlorien, which will sustain Frodo in his hour of need and live on in the love of Aragorn and Arwen, in the enhanced beauty of the Shire and in Gimli's heart, long after it has passed from the world. With these gifts, which are personal to Galadriel, these members of the Fellowship carry Lothlorien with them beyond its borders, and beyond its very existence.

As for Legolas, Merry, Pippin and Boromir, well Legolas probably felt like a kid with a new toy, but I wonder if the others felt more like the father who finds a tie or a pair of socks in a beautifully wrapped present. I mean, the belts are nice and all, but ...

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Galadriel gives the gifts – after drinking the ritual cup of parting with them.

I don't have much myself to say about this, but I strongly suspect that there is some symbolic significance in drinking from a cup of parting . I know that cups traditionally (in the tarot, for example) symbolise hearts, water, emotion and intuition, but after that I draw a blank. Are others able to add anything further here? (davem? Bb? Fordim?) Also, I wonder if there is any significance in the fact that Eowyn also offers a cup of parting - to Aragorn before he disappears off down the Paths of the Dead ...

Finally, I cannot let this Chapter pass without quoting my wife's favourite line (and therefore one of mine, as it reminds me of her):

May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out.