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Old 08-10-2012, 04:14 PM   #9
Radtech51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legolas View Post
Gandalf's ring was not a magic fire-blasting wand-type weapon or anything; nor were any of the rings that we know of. The power of the Three is described by Elrond at the Council of Elrond:

And in Appendix B, Cirdan tells exactly why he gives Narya to Gandalf:

Gandalf put Narya to use for the exact mission he was sent: to rouse the good people of Middle-earth to action, to inspire and rally them together.

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Reply: Thank you for sharing that it explains much.
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Saruman did eventually know that Gandalf had a ring. In the Istari chapter in Unfinished Tales:



As Pervinca Took alluded, tension was already present between Saruman (Curumo) and Gandalf (Olorin) from the moment they were chosen to sail to Middle-earth as emissaries. In the same chapter as above, there is essay about a meeting of the Valar where the wizards are comissioned; this detail is recorded:

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Reply: Very interesting thank you for sharing that it does explain some of the issues between the two.
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Knowledge of this ring craft wasn't specifically a 'task' assigned to Saruman, but rather it was a personal interest taken up by him in greed. Saruman would not have been in a great position to take Gandalf's ring, and he would have almost no use for it anyway. It might have even been risky.

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Reply: I might be wrong but I do remember reading that that specific task was appointed to him. Of course whether or not he appointed it to himself I don't know?
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Saruman, in his knowedge, would have know that the Three were never tainted, and accordingly did not submit to evil desires. His motivation was greed, thus Narya would've been useless to him. Gandalf tells Frodo as much in 'The Shadow of the Past':

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Reply: That's assuming that the rings had no other use for Saruman but to do good? I'm not convinced that Narya would have been useless to him and I belive all the greater rings of power to be of value.
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Perhaps you might ask if he would want Narya simply to make sure Gandalf no longer had it. Though he did strand Gandalf atop Orthanc, there was no great fight (as the movie portrays...); to take Narya from Gandalf may have taken all of Saruman's strength, if indeed he could have beaten Gandalf at all. It was not worth it. At that point, Saruman's focus is to find the One Ring, which he suspects is abroad, and is the reason he confronts Gandalf to begin with. He knows time is of the essence, and suspects Gandalf knows where it is.
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Reply: So Saruman did know Gandolf had one of the greater rings in his possession? I'm surprised when he was captured Saruman didn't attempt to take it although I do understand your logic when you say it would have been a big battle. Sauron sought after the three hidden rings of power so I'm convinced Saruman wouldn't be any different. Sauron alone had the ability to turn the greater rings to evil use but I can't help but wonder if Saruman couldn't have used Gandolf ring in some way to help him? After all he was trying to learn how to make a greater ring of power wouldn't Gandolf's ring have given him a blueprint of some kind? At the very least he would have had a gift to give Sauron one would think?

PS: I always did wonder why Gandolf never did fight Saruman like in the move? In the book it just said that Gandolf was taken, at that moment couldn't they have taken the ring as well?
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Even if he were to find a way to get Narya, Saruman's brash attitude suggests he probably wouldn't have kept ownership of it secret as the humble Gandalf did. Instead, he would have worn it proudly, drawing attention to himself. Sauron would've become aware of this, which wouldn't have been in Saruman's best interest.

It is worth noting that Saruman did manage to make his own ring, but it was apparently a failure. Hadn't worked out the kinks yet, I guess!
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Reply: I didn't know he attempted to try and make a greater ring? I was referring to one of the lesser rings, I wouldn't be surprised if he was able to make one of those.
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I've never read anything that suggests any of the rings aside from the One Ring had the ability to grant invisibility to its wearer. This is a trait unique to Sauron's ring.
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Reply: I believe Gandolf was talking about all rings of power when he said this to Frodo. "The greater rings the rings of power were perilous, if a mortal kept one he would no longer age nor would he die but just continue until it last every moment was a constant weariness. And if he often used the ring to become invisible he would become invisible permanently, and forever walk under the twilight shadow in the realm of the dark Lord."
I believe this would also explain the ability for each ring to become invisible on the wielders hand if they wished it. I might be wrong but this is the way I interpreted it, I never came across any document that I can recall that stated that the ability of invisibility was only granted to the one ring and not the others.
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In addition to the last question (the other rings didn't grant invisibility as far as I know), once dead, the Nine no longer wore their rings. Instead, Sauron kept them which is how he controlled their wills when he did not have the One Ring.

The Nine were present in the 'wraith-world' (what you call twilight) in death because they were mortals who wore the corrupted rings - not because of anything relating to invisibility. Though their bodies had died and faded because they were designed to be mortals, they were able to persist somewhat immortally through the corruption of the rings as long as the One Ring existed. Some other immortal beings have this trait (being present in the spiritual realm) as well.
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Reply: I'm not convinced of this, the greater rings of power granted immortality to the Nine who were given the rings of power and they would not die or age, nor were they likely to ever give up their rings willingly. As Gandolf says no one ever willingly gives up a ring of power, the ring may play with the idea but only if it serves a goal. Rings of power look out for themselves primarily like Gandolf said.
We know at least High Elves could exist/were visible simultaneously in the physical realm and the spiritual realm. Gandalf explains to Frodo why he was able to see Glorfindel.

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Reply: I had read somewhere that Glorfindel was resurrected? I believe it was to fix a contradiction of an earlier tale of Glorfindel being killed by a Balrog and also introduced one of the rare instances where Resurrection took place in middle Earth?
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Last edited by Radtech51; 08-10-2012 at 04:56 PM.
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