[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I am not aware that he does.
You are mixing the situations in an uncalled for manner. I have never argued such a thing. You can see that from the quote above this.

I'll be honest. I'm not sure exactly what you are arguing as far as 'evil' children are concerned.

Nothing in that quote exonerates the germans on behalf of fear. That was the initial statement made by Lal, which is unsuporter by this particular letter. Furthermore, we would need to establish where the analogy with the germans should stop - ideology and manipulation doesn't match Sauron's marring, and anything that the nazis did doesn't amount to an actual attack on Valinor.

You see, I'm stepping back from that one, 'cos that last point is just too wierd.

Ok, let me ask you too: do you think a parent would rather have his children grow up to be instruments of the most horrible evil that can be conceived than not live at all? I agree, again, that this is the most crucial part of the debate.

I don't think you understand how parents think about their children. No parent would wish their child to grow up to do evil, but no parent would wish to see their child killed.

Free will doesn't come with a white check to do unrestrained evil, against one's self or others. If violence can be avoided, free will respected and life preserved, I agree it is the best way out.

Eru took away the Numenoreans' free will when he killed them, because in assaulting Valinor they were exercising said free will.

However, this is going round in circles. And I noticed something interesting.

The Akalabeth states that Eru was responsible for the Fall of Numenor, & that is the accepted version of the story. However, in the Letter to Milton Waldman of Collins Tolkien gives an alternative:

The Valar lay down their delegated power & appeal to God, & receive the power & permission to deal with the situation: the old world is broken & changed. A chasm is opened in the sea & Tar-Calion (sic) & his armada is engulfed. Numenor itself on the edge of the rift topples & vanishes for ever with all its glory in the abyss.

Now, there are a couple of interesting things here. First, this is a very different situation, in that Eru does not destroy Numenor, the Valar do - Eru simply gives them the power & authority to do so. In this scenario he is not personally responsible. And neither are the Valar.

Think about it - the Valar are described as acting effectively in self-defence - they don't trash Numenor on purpose - their intention is merely to remove Valinor out of harm's way, it just so happens that the Island is on the edge of the rift & falls in. One can almost hear Manwe's tortured cri de cour echoing from the heights of Taniquetil: 'Doh!'

Point being: the Valar in this version did not destroy Numenor with malice aforethought, & therefore could not be held morally accountable - & those of us who have a problem with the 'official' version would not (i suspect) have such a problem with this one.

So the other interesting thing to speculate on is why Tolkien chose the version where Eru is directly responsible for the destruction of Numenor over the one where the Valar are indirectly responsible. The 'Valar are responsible but its not really their fault' ( or TVARBINRTF) version is certainly easier to stomach than the 'Eru is responsible & it really is his fault' (or EIR&IRIHF) version, & no-one, really, comes off looking too bad in a moral sense.

Quite interesting, also, that the Second Edition of The Sil has the Letter as a Foreword, so the reader first of all reads TVARBINRTF before the EIR&IRIHF version.

Now, one recalls that Tolkien quoted Chesterton in OFS (on the subject of why children like the 'cruel' punishments meted out to villains in many traditional tales) along the lines of Children are innocent & prefer justice, while we (adults) are wicked & therefore prefer mercy. Does this apply here: 'Children' being 'innocent' prefer the EIR&IRIHF (conspiracy) version, because it clearly depicts Eru punishing the Numenoreans for their sins, while we 'grown-ups' would perhaps choose TVARBINRTF (Cock-up), where it was all an accident?