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Old 05-22-2018, 09:40 AM   #22
Huinesoron
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Huinesoron is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Huinesoron is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balfrog View Post
Huinesoron
The thing is after noting 'Yes' and 'such an obvious source' – you've kind of 'convicted' yourself. Any other suggestions must have a sounder basis with documented proof to overturn such an admission. For example: 'less two for food and lodgings' is pure speculation. Can you prove its two and not one or five? In other words, one can manipulate the math however one wishes to come to a value of '30'. A concocted mixture of amounts and mathematical calculations that cannot be related back to anything Tolkien documented or signed off on - is not good enough. Though I must applaud the logic and your effort!
Emphasis added, because this is precisely what I suggested Tolkien did:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron
When Tolkien came by and decided to specify that Ferny had indeed charged triple, he needed new numbers. Two pennies is ridiculously low for a pony, so he doubled it. That means Ferny would charge 12 pennies, and Butterbur would pay Merry (5×4=) 20 - less two for food and lodgings, that comes to 18.

When he saw that basic maths led to a value of '30 pieces of silver' - or perhaps even 32, from which he subtracted two to make the reference stick - I'm sure Tolkien had a quiet chuckle to himself, and kept it in thereafter. But, taking the original draft into account, it seems highly likely that the reference first appeared by chance, falling out of a basic mathematical function.
In other words, taking into account the fact that 'thirty pieces of silver' is a common-use phrase, and the fact that Tolkien did not originally use it, my hypothesis (never a theory, for there's no direct evidence) is this:

-The original draft said Butterbur gave Merry 26 pennies, split as 6 for Bill the pony and 20 for everything else.
-In editing, Tolkien realised that this made the price of a pony rather silly, so he tweaked it to 4 pennies per pony: thus 12 for Bill, 20 for the others.
-Realising this came to just over 30 silver pennies, which would be an amusing biblical reference, he subtracted two to make it fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balfrog View Post
A specific physical object essential to Tolkien's sect of Christianity has definitely been deliberately included (namely Lembas modeled as sacramental bread). Moreover he tells us that the most important reason for its inclusion in his tale is the faith aspect. Indeed, there are more tangencies for the 'Judas Story' than the 'Sacramental Bread Story' within TLotR – as far as I can see. If Tolkien hadn't specifically confirmed it – no doubt that a waybread/religious connection would have been thought of as a ludicrous suggestion! Eh?
An interesting counterfactual! As it happens, I agree that the idea of a connection between lembas and the sacramental bread is pretty ludicrous. The whole purpose of the host is to be representative of Christ's sacrifice, and/or to actually become the Body of Christ. This is completely unrelated to lembas, which can only be connected to it by very vague ideas - the fact that it's given out on special occasions, and the fact that it's good for you. Lembas has about as much relation to Communion bread as does birthday cake!

Except Tolkien said it, so we have to assume he was telling the truth. Fine, he's the author, he knows what he was thinking when he wrote the book. On that information, it's interesting to note the other magical elven food is an alcoholic drink similar to wine. It wouldn't be a stretch - given the specific connection of 'elven food = Mass' has been explicitly drawn by Tolkien - to speculate that miruvor is part of the same imagery.

But your assertion is (or is coming across as) that any religious analogy that can be drawn more firmly than 'lembas = sacrament' must be accepted as true. Unless it's the one about Gollum. Or the one about oxen.

Tolkien was Catholic, and deeply religious. Imagery from that was always going to make its way into his works, from the local variant on "Let there be light!" down to Finrod Felagund's vision of 'a new heaven and a new earth' in Arda Envinyata. But the use of that imagery does not mean that the story is allegorical, any more than Star Wars is an allegory for the history of the Samurai it was modelled on.

hS

PS: Balfrog, people would be much less likely to accuse you of being a sockpuppet of Ms. Seth if you visited the Downs on days other than the days you post new articles from her. Waiting a month for your replies doesn't build a lot of goodwill.
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